Avery Truffleman

And they were like, we go all the time.

It's so cool.

We're members for life now.

It was so interesting.

And then the other part was getting the perspective from the military.

And that was another whole rigmarole, was getting their perspective.

And I worked on them for so long.

That was my big goal.

I was like, I need to go to the place where they design all this stuff, which is in Natick, Massachusetts.

And it was another one of these things of calling people, interviewing people, being like, do you know someone at Natick?

Do you know someone at Natick?

like asking around and then ultimately um do you know the science writer mary roach yeah she had covered them before and they were like we checked with mary roach and she knows you and she vouched for you it's always like some like you never know who the connection is gonna be that's why you have to be nice to everybody you gotta be nice to everybody you never know yeah so thanks mary

Thanks, Amber.

Yeah, like these are the people who really helped open a door and to get both of their stories.

But it's never... And that's the thing.

I knew I wanted to tell the story of camouflage, but it's really hard to tell, especially on a podcast.

It's like, am I going to describe...

Were you, like, aspiring to ascend through the ranks, or is that just something that happens if you stick around long enough?

So you wanted to stay, right?

Ray's the man who rules.