Cas Holman

And there's all these other physical benefits to even doing play that wasn't necessarily physically engaged.

And that's a really good example of that's a learned taboo.

So I start with talking about the children's play types.

And then I realized while writing the book that they didn't apply to adults.

What's risky for a child isn't risky for an adult.

And adults, developmentally, we just need something so much different from play.

For that, as an example, we learn to feel bad about our bodies or feel like we can't be looked at or this is bad and that's good.

So with sexual things, especially, we can play through something we need extra because it's been so ingrained in us what it's supposed to be or what it's not supposed to be.

In the adult play types, there's kind of misbehavior play.

Oh, interesting.

Or behavior play injuries.

general, which you could say all adult play is misbehavior to some extent because we're kind of not supposed to play.

Exactly, which is in itself kind of misbehavior.

But with sex, which is, I think, one of the primary places that adults play, we need the trust of ourselves and each other and releasing judgment in order to kind of then get back in touch with who we might be before we were taught that it's weird and gross and shameful.

And forget about if there's religion involved.

Right.

Right.

In the book, I tried to talk about how can we, because booze is also a huge part of adult split, not just that it lubricates play for us, but I looked at and we studied and we tried to figure out, this is my co-writer and I, Lydia Dinworth.

She's been on your show.

She wrote Friendship.