David E. Sanger

in Hawaii, on the West Coast, so that if there was ever a incident over Taiwan, say a Chinese invasion or just a slow choking off of Taiwan, that the Chinese could use the code they've put in these systems to turn off the power or turn off the water and slow an American response, an ability to get troops to Taiwan. And that's critically important.

in Hawaii, on the West Coast, so that if there was ever a incident over Taiwan, say a Chinese invasion or just a slow choking off of Taiwan, that the Chinese could use the code they've put in these systems to turn off the power or turn off the water and slow an American response, an ability to get troops to Taiwan. And that's critically important.

It's also got a psychological element, which is if there was a crisis in Taiwan and suddenly you were living in San Francisco and there was no water coming out of the tap, you're not thinking about Taiwan.

It's also got a psychological element, which is if there was a crisis in Taiwan and suddenly you were living in San Francisco and there was no water coming out of the tap, you're not thinking about Taiwan.

You're thinking about how you get water coming out of your tap for your family.

You're thinking about how you get water coming out of your tap for your family.

That's absolutely right. And the U.S. discovered this midway through the Biden administration. And through 2023, there were all these kinds of emergency meetings in the Situation Room, and they brought in the heads of the utilities, and they're trying to go clean out the Chinese malware. But the fact of the matter is, Sabrina, you just don't know what you don't know.

That's absolutely right. And the U.S. discovered this midway through the Biden administration. And through 2023, there were all these kinds of emergency meetings in the Situation Room, and they brought in the heads of the utilities, and they're trying to go clean out the Chinese malware. But the fact of the matter is, Sabrina, you just don't know what you don't know.

And the Chinese are excellent at creating an access into a system, testing out whether it could work, and then pulling all the code out so that when somebody came looking for it, they may not find anything other than a little bit of evidence that Chinese hackers had been there.

And the Chinese are excellent at creating an access into a system, testing out whether it could work, and then pulling all the code out so that when somebody came looking for it, they may not find anything other than a little bit of evidence that Chinese hackers had been there.

That's right. And so I think to understand what has everybody so worried right now, you have to sort of back up enough to look at these two different kind of operations.

That's right. And so I think to understand what has everybody so worried right now, you have to sort of back up enough to look at these two different kind of operations.

So Salt Typhoon, the one that we've been discussing in the telecom system, gives the Chinese an enormous surveillance capability and a chance to monitor national security operations and whether or not we're on to Chinese spies and all that. And the earlier system they discovered, the one that got into the electric grid and the water systems, gives an ability to actually disrupt.

So Salt Typhoon, the one that we've been discussing in the telecom system, gives the Chinese an enormous surveillance capability and a chance to monitor national security operations and whether or not we're on to Chinese spies and all that. And the earlier system they discovered, the one that got into the electric grid and the water systems, gives an ability to actually disrupt.

When you add these together, you get a current surveillance capability and a prospective disruption capability. Right. That what the Chinese can do now is listen in on President-elect Trump and national security officials if they're on that open line. What they could do in the future is shut down systems.

When you add these together, you get a current surveillance capability and a prospective disruption capability. Right. That what the Chinese can do now is listen in on President-elect Trump and national security officials if they're on that open line. What they could do in the future is shut down systems.

What's the government doing about this? Well, they have begun to talk a little more publicly about these kinds of hacks and particularly about Salt Typhoon. That's what led to that warning last week that people should begin using encrypted apps. But that's a band-aid. It's not a solution, right? If you are really going to fix our telecom system,

What's the government doing about this? Well, they have begun to talk a little more publicly about these kinds of hacks and particularly about Salt Typhoon. That's what led to that warning last week that people should begin using encrypted apps. But that's a band-aid. It's not a solution, right? If you are really going to fix our telecom system,

You would either have to go shut it down and rebuild it with something more modern. Well, no one's going to do that. We need it every day. Or you're going to begin to make incremental fixes and then build a parallel system to it that you can begin to shift over to. You are going to have to go set real standards for cybersecurity.

You would either have to go shut it down and rebuild it with something more modern. Well, no one's going to do that. We need it every day. Or you're going to begin to make incremental fixes and then build a parallel system to it that you can begin to shift over to. You are going to have to go set real standards for cybersecurity.