David Shackleton

But I think that dial now moves across, right, to our investment in the sales and marketing side.

So, you know, we don't have, you know, we shared the number of kind of paying customers we have, so we don't have too many.

I think we've probably lost just one or two along the way for different reasons.

I think we see kind of a bunch of people on kind of trials and that sort of stuff.

So sometimes we see slow decision-making, so somebody could use our platform, you know, and they kind of take time to make a decision to go fully live.

I think kind of proper...

churn percentage metric we're probably a bit early to give you something you know to really have a clear handle on what that looks like let me ask maybe a different question which is which is valuable in terms of customer growth so to get a new customer paying you uh kind of what you want which is three grand a month how much you're willing to spend fully weighted cac to get them yeah so at the moment we probably like i think we have a bit to do to really scale to admit for that without for that calculation to make sense and to really say it i mean i think we

you know i it's really too early to put a number on it i mean i'm at the stage we're at now i'm comfortable paying up to 100 right uh first year yeah well even beyond right and because of the stage we're at um but i think as we you know as we scale up then you know that obviously that economics on that need to improve i think we do think about the different acquisitions differently like we've you know done a bunch bunch of stuff on sem right and you know that's you know we we tend to be you know getting good leads signed up for a platform for like

$40, $50 a customer, right, which is much cheaper, the quality of that is lower and the chance of converting to high paying customers lower.

So we kind of have different, I guess, LTVs and calculations depending on the conversation channel.

I think we're too early for venture debt, would be my sense of it.

I think the venture debt market is certainly more mature in the US and especially West Coast, and then it will be in Europe.

I think we're still early for venture debt.

What do you mean by that?

Yeah, I think our risk profile is still, you know, we're still a relatively early stage company, right?

And I think for venture, my understanding in terms of venture debt would often make sense when companies are a bit further down the track, their ARRs are a bit higher and they've been around a bit longer.

I think so far we haven't done it because we've invented a whole new way for something to work.

And I think

We've needed time.

We're at this three years, right?