Dr. Marc Gafni

In other words, you have to be madly on the inside with a direct taste of

of the field of the divine and then from that place you actually hurl the challenge to the divine yeah right and that's the but then you're hurling it from the inside then the question is the answer it's the it's the ultimate intimacy and it's the ultimate intimacy is to challenge god

And all of a sudden, it's exactly from the inside.

So let's step inside for a second.

I want to go back, as you suggest, to a couple of earlier encounters.

There were two men who were both beautiful men.

They were actually good friends.

One is very, very much with us, a wonderful man, Ken Wilber.

And the other, um, was a good friend of Ken's and a, a, a good friend of Mariana Kaplan, um, who is my beautiful son, Zion, you know, great mom, John Wellwood.

John was her mentor.

And I became friends through, you know, with John a little bit, you know, at the end, and we did a bunch of, of, of dialogues on this.

And John wrote a book called the psychology of awakening.

It's one of the most, John was part of a group of, uh, a great group of people, um,

Who wrote Danny Goldman, his wife, Joseph Goldstein, John, these guys all went east at a certain moment.

Sharon Salzberg, I think, was in that group.

And they kind of did kind of that, you know, Jewish, you know, American, you know, Buddhist thing.

And a very beautiful, they made a very beautiful contribution.

So I'll just tell you two stories from each of them because they're relevant.

So just John first.

So John said, I heard about you from different people.