Dr. Marc Gafni

And he said, I was so surprised to meet you because you were different than the guy I heard about.

So he said, I've decided that I really like you.

He gave me a bunch of compliments.

He said, but the truth is then all that crashes again because they tell me that you believe in prayer.

And he said, like, and I've actually now read, like, a bunch of your stuff, and it can't be that you believe in prayer.

That just doesn't, like, you just lose all credibility with me.

So, you know, and John was a major Buddhist, you know, meditator and quite, quite, quite serious.

So I said, you know, John, why do you believe in awareness?

He said, I don't believe in awareness.

Don't you understand?

I said, well, you don't?

You don't believe in awareness?

He said, no, awareness is a realization.

I said, oh, so prayer is a realization.

And it was like, and he's, John's a deep guy.

He's like, he was like,

okay, what does that mean?

And that's when the conversation started.

And I had a different but similar conversation with Ken and we spend, and Ken, if you're listening, you remember these conversations.

They were beautiful at his loft in Boulder or Denver then.