Ezra Klein

My guest today is Rebecca Winthrop, the director of the Center for Universal Education at the Brookings Institution. Her latest book, co-authored with Jenny Anderson, is The Disengaged Teen, helping kids learn better, feel better, and live better. As always, my email is reclineshow at nytimes.com. Rebecca Winthrop, welcome to the show.

My guest today is Rebecca Winthrop, the director of the Center for Universal Education at the Brookings Institution. Her latest book, co-authored with Jenny Anderson, is The Disengaged Teen, helping kids learn better, feel better, and live better. As always, my email is reclineshow at nytimes.com. Rebecca Winthrop, welcome to the show.

So I have a three and a six-year-old. I feel like I cannot predict with AI what it is society will want or reward from them in 15, 16 years, which makes this question in the interim, how should they be educated? What should they be educated towards? feel really uncertain to me. My confidence that the schools are set up now for the world they are going to graduate into is very, very low.

So I have a three and a six-year-old. I feel like I cannot predict with AI what it is society will want or reward from them in 15, 16 years, which makes this question in the interim, how should they be educated? What should they be educated towards? feel really uncertain to me. My confidence that the schools are set up now for the world they are going to graduate into is very, very low.

So you study education. You've been thinking a lot about education and AI. What advice would you give me?

So you study education. You've been thinking a lot about education and AI. What advice would you give me?

Well, I have a lot of hopes and dreams for my kids. I would like them to live happy, fulfilling lives. I think I'm not naive. And certainly in my lifetime, the implicit purpose of education, the way we say to ourselves, did this kid's education work out, is do they get a good job? Right. That's really what we're pointing the arrow towards. Right.

Well, I have a lot of hopes and dreams for my kids. I would like them to live happy, fulfilling lives. I think I'm not naive. And certainly in my lifetime, the implicit purpose of education, the way we say to ourselves, did this kid's education work out, is do they get a good job? Right. That's really what we're pointing the arrow towards. Right.

The fact that maybe developed their faculties as a human being, the fact that maybe they learned things that were beautiful or fascinating, that's all great. But if they do all that and they don't get a good job, then we failed them. And if they do none of that, but they do get a good job, then we succeeded. So I think that's been the reality of education.

The fact that maybe developed their faculties as a human being, the fact that maybe they learned things that were beautiful or fascinating, that's all great. But if they do all that and they don't get a good job, then we failed them. And if they do none of that, but they do get a good job, then we succeeded. So I think that's been the reality of education.

But I also think that reality relies a little bit on an economy in which we've asked people to act very often as machines of a kind. And now we've created these machines that can act or mimic as people of a kind. And so now the whole transaction is being thrown into some chaos. Exactly.

But I also think that reality relies a little bit on an economy in which we've asked people to act very often as machines of a kind. And now we've created these machines that can act or mimic as people of a kind. And so now the whole transaction is being thrown into some chaos. Exactly.

I think sometimes about this distinction between education as a virtue and education is something that is instrumental. Education is training. Studying the classics was important, not because it made it likelier that you got into law school, but because it deepened your appreciation of beauty, it deepened your capacities as a human being.

I think sometimes about this distinction between education as a virtue and education is something that is instrumental. Education is training. Studying the classics was important, not because it made it likelier that you got into law school, but because it deepened your appreciation of beauty, it deepened your capacities as a human being.

And I think for reasons that make a lot of sense, in many ways, we drifted away from that. And I don't know that you build a society off of people just enjoying what they're studying. And at the same time, I worry now we have pulled people into a conveyor belt. that when they get to the other side of it, there's not going to be that much there.

And I think for reasons that make a lot of sense, in many ways, we drifted away from that. And I don't know that you build a society off of people just enjoying what they're studying. And at the same time, I worry now we have pulled people into a conveyor belt. that when they get to the other side of it, there's not going to be that much there.

And I don't even think you need to imagine AI for that. That's already happening to a lot of people. I think one reason you see a lot of anger among young people today is that the deal often doesn't come through.

And I don't even think you need to imagine AI for that. That's already happening to a lot of people. I think one reason you see a lot of anger among young people today is that the deal often doesn't come through.

You do all the extracurriculars, you get your good grades, you show up on time, and then you graduate college and the good jobs and the interesting life you were promised just aren't there anymore. And so there's something there that feels like it is getting thrown into question. If we don't know what the future is going to ask of us, how can we be instrumental in the way we train people for it?

You do all the extracurriculars, you get your good grades, you show up on time, and then you graduate college and the good jobs and the interesting life you were promised just aren't there anymore. And so there's something there that feels like it is getting thrown into question. If we don't know what the future is going to ask of us, how can we be instrumental in the way we train people for it?