Ezra Klein

You have in your book these four modes of engagement. Do you want to talk through them?

You have in your book these four modes of engagement. Do you want to talk through them?

Well, why don't you go through them? I think passenger mode is particularly interesting here. So why don't we start there?

Well, why don't you go through them? I think passenger mode is particularly interesting here. So why don't we start there?

One reason I wanted to start in passenger mode is that when I think about ways AI probably is now, but can be very harmful, it's the connection with that mode. Because in passenger mode, what you want to do, and many of us have done passenger mode at work, and many of us have done it at school. In some ways, passenger mode was what I aspired to be at school. I just wasn't able to achieve it.

One reason I wanted to start in passenger mode is that when I think about ways AI probably is now, but can be very harmful, it's the connection with that mode. Because in passenger mode, what you want to do, and many of us have done passenger mode at work, and many of us have done it at school. In some ways, passenger mode was what I aspired to be at school. I just wasn't able to achieve it.

But you're reading something you think is boring. You're reading something you don't want to be reading. But you want to get a good grade. So maybe at an earlier point, you would buy the SparkNotes. Right. But now you just have ChatGPT summarize it. And more than that, you can have ChatGPT write the essay. Kids are getting better at telling ChatGPT, no, you actually wrote too good of an essay.

But you're reading something you think is boring. You're reading something you don't want to be reading. But you want to get a good grade. So maybe at an earlier point, you would buy the SparkNotes. Right. But now you just have ChatGPT summarize it. And more than that, you can have ChatGPT write the essay. Kids are getting better at telling ChatGPT, no, you actually wrote too good of an essay.

Like, dumb it down a little bit. You've basically hired your own, like, fill-in student. Mm-hmm. who can help you coast. And that will help you get, if you're able to do it adroitly enough, decent grades. But also whatever meta skills, forget the knowledge, whatever meta skills are being taught, how to read a book, how to write an essay, you're not actually learning them.

Like, dumb it down a little bit. You've basically hired your own, like, fill-in student. Mm-hmm. who can help you coast. And that will help you get, if you're able to do it adroitly enough, decent grades. But also whatever meta skills, forget the knowledge, whatever meta skills are being taught, how to read a book, how to write an essay, you're not actually learning them.

And that's, I think, when people think educationally about AI, a bit of the fear and something that I believe everybody believes is happening now. So how do you think about that interaction?

And that's, I think, when people think educationally about AI, a bit of the fear and something that I believe everybody believes is happening now. So how do you think about that interaction?

These kids are getting good at something. I'm not sure that's what we want them getting good at, but they're getting good at something.

These kids are getting good at something. I'm not sure that's what we want them getting good at, but they're getting good at something.

I have very personally complicated feelings on the question of AI and education, just question of education generally. I hated school, hated it, did terribly in it. Starting in middle school, going through high school, failed classes, just found the whole thing impenetrable.

I have very personally complicated feelings on the question of AI and education, just question of education generally. I hated school, hated it, did terribly in it. Starting in middle school, going through high school, failed classes, just found the whole thing impenetrable.

And not because I wasn't smart, not because I wasn't interested even in things related to it, just somehow the whole construct didn't work for me and I couldn't make it work for me. It wasn't exactly that I was bored. I think today I probably could have muscled through it. But for whatever reason, then I couldn't. But I was voracious outside of school.

And not because I wasn't smart, not because I wasn't interested even in things related to it, just somehow the whole construct didn't work for me and I couldn't make it work for me. It wasn't exactly that I was bored. I think today I probably could have muscled through it. But for whatever reason, then I couldn't. But I was voracious outside of school.

I spent three or four nights a week at Barnes & Noble's. I loved reading deeply into things that I was interested in. And I've related this story before. And one of the sort of reactions I get is, well, you should really then... recognize the way school fails kids. And in a way, I do. But it's just not obvious to me at all that school should be tuned for me.

I spent three or four nights a week at Barnes & Noble's. I loved reading deeply into things that I was interested in. And I've related this story before. And one of the sort of reactions I get is, well, you should really then... recognize the way school fails kids. And in a way, I do. But it's just not obvious to me at all that school should be tuned for me.