Fareed Zakaria

Some of it is Western power, the expansion of NATO, for sure. But a lot of what Putin has been obsessed by has been the expansion of Western liberal ideas and ideology. So if you notice the things that he talks so much about are the rise of multiculturalism in the West, the rise of a kind of libertine ideology. gender ideology, the idea of gender fluidity, even weighed in on the J.K.

Rowling controversy. These issues are central to the way that Putin thinks about Russian power, the power of his regime. And so he's viewed the rising tide and the spreading of Western liberal ideas as as much a threat as the expansion of NATO. So notice that

Rowling controversy. These issues are central to the way that Putin thinks about Russian power, the power of his regime. And so he's viewed the rising tide and the spreading of Western liberal ideas as as much a threat as the expansion of NATO. So notice that

When he really reacted with force against Georgia in 2008 and then against Ukraine in 2014, in both cases, the issue was not actually that these countries were about to join NATO. They were not. It's that they were going to join the European Union or at least wanted to have better relations with the European Union. What does the European Union represent?

When he really reacted with force against Georgia in 2008 and then against Ukraine in 2014, in both cases, the issue was not actually that these countries were about to join NATO. They were not. It's that they were going to join the European Union or at least wanted to have better relations with the European Union. What does the European Union represent?

It represents some kind of idea of a Western-style capitalist liberal democracy. And so the way he looks at it is he doesn't want to be surrounded by those kind of countries. He wants to be surrounded by countries like Belarus and Kazakhstan, quasi-authoritarian, somewhat kleptocratic regimes that he can control and manipulate.

It represents some kind of idea of a Western-style capitalist liberal democracy. And so the way he looks at it is he doesn't want to be surrounded by those kind of countries. He wants to be surrounded by countries like Belarus and Kazakhstan, quasi-authoritarian, somewhat kleptocratic regimes that he can control and manipulate.

And I think Xi also, if you listen to Xi Jinping, a lot of the things he's talked about is the dangers of too much westernization, too much liberalism. The Chinese have not just cracked down on the private sector, they've cracked down on what they called the effeminacy of men. He's talked about the virtues of motherhood and women going back to raising families.

And I think Xi also, if you listen to Xi Jinping, a lot of the things he's talked about is the dangers of too much westernization, too much liberalism. The Chinese have not just cracked down on the private sector, they've cracked down on what they called the effeminacy of men. He's talked about the virtues of motherhood and women going back to raising families.

So again, he views this rising tide of Western liberalism as as much a threat, I think, as Western hard power. And here the irony is Trump and Vance agree with them. And so, you know, for the first time now you have in America a party or an ideology that says, yes, that's right. And in a strange sense, and Steve Bannon would explicitly say this, our real allies should be Russia.

So again, he views this rising tide of Western liberalism as as much a threat, I think, as Western hard power. And here the irony is Trump and Vance agree with them. And so, you know, for the first time now you have in America a party or an ideology that says, yes, that's right. And in a strange sense, and Steve Bannon would explicitly say this, our real allies should be Russia.

And that becomes the new alliance system. Now that takes it further than, you know, than we are right now. But it's those inclinations.

And that becomes the new alliance system. Now that takes it further than, you know, than we are right now. But it's those inclinations.

Yeah, you know, many years ago, I wrote an article called The Rise of Illiberal Democracy in Foreign Affairs. And, you know, I was trying to describe this phenomenon of countries that were with majorities, with pluralities. We had elected leaders who then systematically... degraded the rule of law and individual rights and individual liberties. And of course, I meant it as a term of condemnation.

Yeah, you know, many years ago, I wrote an article called The Rise of Illiberal Democracy in Foreign Affairs. And, you know, I was trying to describe this phenomenon of countries that were with majorities, with pluralities. We had elected leaders who then systematically... degraded the rule of law and individual rights and individual liberties. And of course, I meant it as a term of condemnation.

Viktor Orban gave a speech a few years after he came to power. He didn't quote me, but he cited the phrase illiberal democracy and said, people have talked about illiberal democracy. That is what we want to achieve. That is our goal. We want to be an illiberal democracy because we don't believe in the tenets of Western liberalism.

Viktor Orban gave a speech a few years after he came to power. He didn't quote me, but he cited the phrase illiberal democracy and said, people have talked about illiberal democracy. That is what we want to achieve. That is our goal. We want to be an illiberal democracy because we don't believe in the tenets of Western liberalism.

And I think that that is, you know, where some impulses of the Trump administration go. Now, I do want to say there are two possibilities, and you have outlined them yourself, because when you first started the conversation, you said the Trump people tell me, look— We just want to use unused American power and get a better deal within this framework that we've built up, right?

And I think that that is, you know, where some impulses of the Trump administration go. Now, I do want to say there are two possibilities, and you have outlined them yourself, because when you first started the conversation, you said the Trump people tell me, look— We just want to use unused American power and get a better deal within this framework that we've built up, right?

We're okay with the liberal international system. We just think we got screwed. So that's one theory of where Trump is going. And I actually had a conversation with a very senior Republican this week. who was hoping, and I would say was arguing, that that's where Trump is going. Yeah, there's a lot of noise. It's very messy.