Gordon Carrera

It's a little bit like from the opening session onwards.

There's an edginess between the US and Europe, isn't there?

Yeah, he got quite a tough time.

And there was this constant questioning, will you say explicitly Russia is a threat?

And there was a kind of there seemed to be a moment where even that was difficult to say.

And then there was also a funny bit where there then was a row between the Europeans about whether, I think, wasn't it Spain is spending enough on defence?

And it turned into a like the Spanish diplomat stood up and go, no, those figures are wrong.

We're spending more on defence.

And someone said, this is what NATO is like.

You just don't normally see it, you know, on public display with, you know, everyone trying to work out what the Americans think and the Europeans arguing about defence spending.

So it's a bit where, you know, it's out in the open a little bit more than it used to be.

The kind of some of the tensions between the different sides.

It's good for us journalists.

Yeah.

What about, I mean, we're interested in the intelligence and the classified world on this podcast.

What's your sense?

We've obviously got to be a bit discreet about our sources, all being good journalists, about what the mood is within that world.

I mean, we're talking about some of the political relationships and diplomatic relationships getting a bit more tetchy.

Do you think that's also true at the working intelligence level?

Yeah.