Gordon Carrera

Yeah, I think that's a really interesting way of seeing it because rather than thinking she is someone who is trained as a spy and recruited, put through a year or two of training and then sent to do this, she's someone who they go, you've got access, you've got influence, you've proved that in London. Let's start using you and training you up as you go to become a spy.

I think it's worth reflecting here about the way Russia spies, which is slightly different as well. One of the things that they do is use these people under what they call illegal cover, which is kind of an odd phrase. But the contrast is they think of someone who's under diplomatic cover. So a spy who's working at the embassy, they have legal cover because they've got diplomatic immunity.

I think it's worth reflecting here about the way Russia spies, which is slightly different as well. One of the things that they do is use these people under what they call illegal cover, which is kind of an odd phrase. But the contrast is they think of someone who's under diplomatic cover. So a spy who's working at the embassy, they have legal cover because they've got diplomatic immunity.

I think it's worth reflecting here about the way Russia spies, which is slightly different as well. One of the things that they do is use these people under what they call illegal cover, which is kind of an odd phrase. But the contrast is they think of someone who's under diplomatic cover. So a spy who's working at the embassy, they have legal cover because they've got diplomatic immunity.

And if they get arrested, they can't be arrested. They just get expelled. But an illegal is someone who doesn't have, if you like, diplomatic cover, but is blending into a society. and who is moving around with it, kind of swimming in the waters, hopefully unseen. And it's a particular type of spy which the Russians specialise in.

And if they get arrested, they can't be arrested. They just get expelled. But an illegal is someone who doesn't have, if you like, diplomatic cover, but is blending into a society. and who is moving around with it, kind of swimming in the waters, hopefully unseen. And it's a particular type of spy which the Russians specialise in.

And if they get arrested, they can't be arrested. They just get expelled. But an illegal is someone who doesn't have, if you like, diplomatic cover, but is blending into a society. and who is moving around with it, kind of swimming in the waters, hopefully unseen. And it's a particular type of spy which the Russians specialise in.

Exactly. I think the Russians were famous and the Soviets for using these deep cover illegals who they trained for years. They trained them to actually pose as being another nationality. You take a Russian and you'd make them into being a Canadian or a Briton or an American.

Exactly. I think the Russians were famous and the Soviets for using these deep cover illegals who they trained for years. They trained them to actually pose as being another nationality. You take a Russian and you'd make them into being a Canadian or a Briton or an American.

Exactly. I think the Russians were famous and the Soviets for using these deep cover illegals who they trained for years. They trained them to actually pose as being another nationality. You take a Russian and you'd make them into being a Canadian or a Briton or an American.

insert them with the identity of a real, maybe a Briton or an American who died and have them kind of embed themselves deep in society. The idea was that they could then do things which a Russian couldn't do. They could move in circles and not be as suspicious. And so that was your classic deep cover illegal.

insert them with the identity of a real, maybe a Briton or an American who died and have them kind of embed themselves deep in society. The idea was that they could then do things which a Russian couldn't do. They could move in circles and not be as suspicious. And so that was your classic deep cover illegal.

insert them with the identity of a real, maybe a Briton or an American who died and have them kind of embed themselves deep in society. The idea was that they could then do things which a Russian couldn't do. They could move in circles and not be as suspicious. And so that was your classic deep cover illegal.

But what I think we're seeing here in the 90s and 2000s is a recognition by Russia that times have changed. for two reasons. I think one is that it's harder to do that kind of deep cover stuff. One of the reasons is biometrics because you've got kind of passports, you've got databases.

But what I think we're seeing here in the 90s and 2000s is a recognition by Russia that times have changed. for two reasons. I think one is that it's harder to do that kind of deep cover stuff. One of the reasons is biometrics because you've got kind of passports, you've got databases.

But what I think we're seeing here in the 90s and 2000s is a recognition by Russia that times have changed. for two reasons. I think one is that it's harder to do that kind of deep cover stuff. One of the reasons is biometrics because you've got kind of passports, you've got databases.

It's harder to kind of create a fake identity and then sustain it whether it's fingerprints or DNA or facial recognition to use different names and different types of cover. But also, one of the reasons that they needed to do this in the kind of 20s and 30s and in the Cold War onwards and use these illegals was because

It's harder to kind of create a fake identity and then sustain it whether it's fingerprints or DNA or facial recognition to use different names and different types of cover. But also, one of the reasons that they needed to do this in the kind of 20s and 30s and in the Cold War onwards and use these illegals was because

It's harder to kind of create a fake identity and then sustain it whether it's fingerprints or DNA or facial recognition to use different names and different types of cover. But also, one of the reasons that they needed to do this in the kind of 20s and 30s and in the Cold War onwards and use these illegals was because

Russians couldn't move easily in Western society, where suddenly you've got this period where, as we said, from the 90s to the 2000s, Russians can come into London. They can move around London. That's not suspicious. There's not a kind of barrier to it.