Holly Wainwright

Yeah, I think they'll make great decisions.

Are you ready?

Because from what I've seen, they're named in some of the emails and that sort of thing just through naughty, naughty parents.

It's such a good point because I

I have read that the royal ascot thing is coming from William and Charles basically, probably William, being like we don't want to be photographed with them.

Yeah, we don't want any part of this.

It's not about the carriage.

It's about the photos.

So that's why they are explicitly excluded from this particular royal, very public royal event.

I can't decide because on the one hand, I am very sympathetic to the argument that it is women who seem to bear the cost when we almost can't get men to.

Like we have no control over the legal process, so we don't really know what to do with Andrew, but we can shame women.

And there's

a very, very long history of shaming women for consorting with evil or men who have done the wrong thing.

Yes, 100%.

And the thing that makes it more complicated, though, is exactly as you say, that there is evidence that it's been more than kind of proximity to the issue.

It's been more than that.

And Fergie...

is naughty, naughty, naughty because she pretended like she was kind of collateral damage in all of this, that she didn't have any kind of personal relationship.

And those emails are so damning.

The fact that in 2010, which, as you say, was after Jeffrey Epstein had been