Katherine Ramsland

And serial murder in 1974, my Lord, they hardly knew anything.

Well, he was an outlier in that he studied killers from the 1950s and 60s through two detective magazines to adopt these role models.

There aren't many serial killers who have done that.

So that was unusual.

And that he was more of, you know, he wasn't,

a reactive serial killer.

It wasn't anger.

Lust was certainly part of it, but it wasn't the murders that were part of what turned him on.

It was the bondage.

So once he's done things to people, he's got to kill them because otherwise they'll identify him and turn him in.

But to some serial killers, the murder is the highlight.

That is not true for race.

Yeah.

So he had a number of things that were at least different enough for me to want to track this, track his trajectory to try to figure out how do we get somebody who's an all-American kid who becomes this family man,

church leader, Boy Scout, volunteer, holding down jobs, and also has this dark life of serial murder because he wants to be

an elite serial killer like Jack the Ripper, Ted Bundy, people like that.

I'm following you.

Are you trying to say, how do we use this for intervention?

Is that what you're doing?

Yes.