Matthew Rourke
Appearances
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Janelle developed a crush on Billy Payne pretty early on, even though Janelle was ostensibly in a relationship with Jamie Curd, who was... Billy Payne's cousin.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
It was more just petty middle school trash talking. So-and-so's a whore. So-and-so has HIV. So-and-so has slept with half of Johnson County.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
It's February 2nd, so it was a few days after the homicide. Law enforcement went to the Potter's residence there in Johnson County. They lived several miles away from Billy Payne and Billie Jean Hayworth. But they conducted an interview in the living room of the Potter home.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
And for most of that conversation, it wasn't really a discussion about the two deceased. It was more talking about how Janelle had been harassed and how she had been harassed by people out within the community and how she had been harassed by Billy Payne and Billie Jean Hayward.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
During that interview on February 2nd, Janelle told investigators that people online had not just said mean things about her, but had threatened to rape her because she was too pretty and that she wasn't from the area, so she would never be accepted.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
There seemed to be very little, shockingly little, empathy, sympathy for Billy Payne and Billie Jean Hayworth. And more of a pity party, woe is me for Janelle for having to endure this alleged harassment. After that conversation, law enforcement left there both bewildered and interested in the Potter family.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Following the February 2nd, 2012 interview with the Potter family at their house, that really started narrowing down who they talked to and what they focused on. That's when they started actually paying attention to the social media posts, who was posting, and focusing on Jamie Curd. Because Jamie Curd did have information about the back and forth online.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
The first interview with Jamie Curd, it was pretty obvious that he was being deceptive. He would not admit to having anything more than an acquaintance-type relationship with Janelle.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Now, I don't think that he really participated in that, but he definitely bought into the allegations that Billie Jean Hayworth and Billie Payne were harassing and threatening Janelle.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Did you know about them being killed?
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
My name is Matthew Rourke. In January of 2012, I was an assistant district attorney in Johnson County, Tennessee, and I was the only prosecutor in the county. I did everything from speeding tickets to first-degree murders.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Jamie Curd had threatened to cut Billy Payne's throat in a fit of anger. Now, what that fight was about, I don't know, but that was one of the things that investigators had focused in on was that Jamie Curd had gotten mad and told Billy Payne that he was going to cut his throat. And, of course, Billy Payne later ended up with his throat cut.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
It was during the second interview that he was confronted with a love letter from Janelle. And that's more or less what got him talking, is getting caught in that And when he was confronted with these inconsistencies, that's when he broke down and started talking.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
When Janelle found out that Billy Payne was dating Billy Jean, the jealousy meter just broke. And Janelle got in Jamie's ear and basically turned Jamie against Billy Payne.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Jamie told law enforcement that Marvin had cornered him when Barbara and Janelle were not in the room and told him that he needed some help with something. Marvin told Jamie that he needed Jamie to drop him off near Bill's house, drive around, and come back a few minutes later and pick him up.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
And it was later the night or the next night that he got a text message from Janelle saying that, Daddy's ready. Daddy's coming to get you. He says that he's picked up by Marvin Potter at his house, at Jamie's house, and they are driven down the road to where Billy Payne and Billie Jean Hayworth were living.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
He said that he was told to be a lookout, that as he was walking up to the sliding glass door, he was given a gun, and he expresses to Buddy that he can't kill anybody, but Buddy just tells him that he needs him to stand by the front door.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
And he relates that they both go in the house through the sliding glass door and that Marvin goes down the hallway, goes into the first room. Jamie says that Billie Jean comes out screaming. Now, Jamie doesn't say anything about the baby, but says that Billie Jean comes out screaming and runs down the hall the opposite direction
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
of Jamie, that Jamie hears a gunshot and that Marvin walks out of the first bedroom and makes eye contact with him. And Jamie says that he points the other direction further down the hall and that Marvin then goes down the hall to the second bedroom and that Jamie hears a second shot.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
During that second interview, Jamie pointed the finger at Marvin Potter, said that he was the shooter. Jamie Curd took a lie detector test. And at the end of the interview, it concluded with a recorded phone call from Jamie Curd to Marvin Potter.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Asking if he had gotten rid of all that stuff from Bill.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
After that phone call that Jamie Curd made to Marvin Potter, law enforcement, they go ahead and get an arrest warrant for Marvin Potter to charge him with first degree murder. It was in the early hours of the next morning that they go to serve that arrest warrant, as well as a search warrant for the Potter residence.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
When investigators searched the Potter home, they found an astonishing number of firearms. And this is northeast Tennessee. There's a lot of guns in northeast Tennessee. But boy, were there a lot of guns in the Potter house. I want to say that there were close to 200 firearms found.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Out of all the firearms that were seized from the Potter house, not one of them matched the rifling and the markings that would have been created on the bullets that were found at the scene. So it wasn't any of the firearms that were found in the house.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
During the search of the Potter home, Barbara Potter was detained and she was made to sit on the couch in the living room. Well, at one point during the search, Barbara Potter grabs a stack of papers and starts ripping them up. And, of course, she's told, don't do that.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
And they look at what she was ripping up, and it was printed photo off, I don't know if it was Facebook or might have even been MySpace at the time. But it was pictures of Billie Jean Hayworth and her friends with captions. Such thing as whores, bitches, and... They need to die.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
His friend came normal time as he was supposed to and called Billy from the driveway. Usually Billy was ready, but he wasn't. So his friend called him, didn't get him. So he stepped in through the sliding glass door on the side of the house. And it was pretty well known among everybody that knew Billy Payne that, you know, that door was rarely locked.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
We knew that when Marvin Potter was arrested that it just didn't feel like we were done.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
When Marvin Potter was arrested, his truck was seized as evidence. And a search warrant was written for it. And it was taken to the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation crime lab to be just combed through. And there were things found in his truck that were very concerning.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
One of those was bullets were found in the console of his truck that had the same scratch marks on them as the bullets that were found at the scene. Same caliber, same markings, the poor man's hollow tips, as they were called.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
And in the back of Buddy's truck were several bags of trash. And in these bags of trash were piles of shredded documents. There was a TBI agent that, bless her heart, pieced about 30 or 40 of these pages together from the shredded documents.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
And they were printed emails or printed screenshots of social media posts that had been shredded for some reason. And we later found out that that's how Marvin Potter knew what was going on online was Janelle and Barbara would print out the social media posts, these emails with all this just venomous back and forth garbage.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Chris fed the flames for the Potter parents, Marvin and Barbara, in the sense that Chris would back up Janelle, saying that Billy Payne, Billie Jean Hayworth, and their circle of friends were all making threats against Janelle, that they were all you know, out to get her, and that it was just a matter of time before someone came and killed, raped, or otherwise harmed Janelle.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
So this CIA agent named Chris is somebody that Janelle would talk about. She talked about the CIA agent with Jamie Curd. She talked about the CIA agent with her mother, Barbara Potter.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
The first witness went in and heard an alarm clock going on and called out for Billy Payne, but Billy didn't answer. So he just assumed he was sick or that something was going on, so he left.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
This Chris held himself out as having this knowledge because of the special access or the... whether real or not special powers that a CIA agent would have to access phone records, internet records, email records.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Based on the messages, the emails, everything found in the search warrants, you know, Barbara would interact with Chris and agree with him that something needed to be done, would agree with him that, you know, things have got to change. Otherwise, Janelle's in trouble. You know, Barbara even talked about having a training session where they had Jamie come up and shoot guns in the backyard.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
And she talked about making a pineapple upside down cake. for after they were done training.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Once we started finding the emails, the messages in the search warrants that matched to the shredded documents, that's when we were able to finally conclude that they must have been printing this stuff off and showing it to Marvin. And in an attempt to convince Marvin that Janelle was in danger and that he needed to take action to basically extinguish the threats to Janelle.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
We found messages between Chris and Barbara, but because Marvin never used a computer, there was never any direct communication between Chris and Marvin. But there were messages that were intended to be delivered to Marvin, such as, do what you got to do. CIA has your back. I can't be there to help you. but I can provide support from the CIA.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Law enforcement was very interested in finding Chris, but honestly, early on, I don't know how else to say it, but to say it, it was pretty obvious Chris didn't exist.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
He thought it odd that both Billy Payne and Billy Jean Hayworth's vehicles were there in the driveway. So he went in the same sliding glass door that everybody goes in and out of and walked through the house.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
What a twist. During the investigation, search warrants, subpoenas were done. subscriber records from the internet service providers, subscriber records from the cell phones. Once we determined that all of these accounts, you know, that the IP address matched the Potter household, we did search warrants for Yahoo Messenger, Yahoo email, AOL email, Topics.net.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
And through these search warrants, it was determined that all of this correspondence was coming from the Potter house.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Samples were taken from Janelle and Barbara, writing samples, both handwritten and typed, and those samples were used to compare to the returns on the search warrants for the messages, the emails, the posts on the social media sites. We looked at word choice, we looked at spelling mistakes, we looked at punctuation, and lo and behold,
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Chris had the same grammatical syntax, punctuation, word choice, very, I mean, identical to Janelle.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Janelle used this fictitious Chris character as a way to corroborate what she was claiming was happening to her online. Chris would and could say things that Janelle never would. Janelle was very, very concerned with being seen as this good little Christian girl who would never say anything mean about anybody, very meek, very easy to get along with.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
But Chris could say all the things that Janelle wouldn't.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
The night that Marvin Potter was arrested, he was interviewed at the Johnson County Sheriff's Department for hours, hours. He was there for a while, and it took him a long time to come off of it and to admit that he was involved.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
He basically said that, yeah, he was involved, that he and Jamie Curd had went there, that he was afraid for Janelle's life, and he felt like it was something he needed to do to protect his daughter and his family.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Marvin makes a recorded phone call to Barbara, and he wants to be the first person to tell her. And he calls her and immediately says, Barbara, I was involved. I did it.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Instead of weeping, wailing, gnashing of teeth, Barbara Potter says, oh no, you couldn't have done it. You were sitting right here with me. You must not have your oxygen. You don't know what you're talking about.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
He walked into the first room and saw Billy Payne laying there on the bed. He approached Billy Payne just to see if he was responsive and saw that blood going through the room and then saw the pool of blood on the bed and saw that Billy Payne's throat had been slit and he'd been shot.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
There was no reaction that you might expect from someone whose husband just told him that he committed two murders.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
We didn't get into... digital evidence we didn't get into the emails we didn't get into the text messages any of that really in Marvin's trial we didn't really have to get into all that other stuff because we were really concerned that we would lose a jury they would just get lost in the weeds
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
That's something I've always struggled with, whether Janelle completely, completely intended for the murders to occur. Now, we know that she had a very, very limited social circle. She was starved for attention. And she's one of these people that any attention, even negative attention, At least it's attention. And she would stir it up.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
I mean, she would stir up the drama just so that people would pay attention to her and so that she could play the victim.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
There was testimony at the trial that she was operating on basically a middle school level, but that she was absolutely competent and was not insane at the time. You've got this grown woman who is acting like middle schoolers do online, thriving off this negative attention and all of this asinine arguing and name-calling back and forth that... It got out of hand.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
I think that Janelle pushed it so far that Barbara bought into it. And they together convinced Marvin that these threats were real and that he had to do something about it. And he did.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
We put on the same evidence that we did in the first trial, but we also had to convince the jury and make it understandable. This big, crazy story.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
This Topics.net was an online forum website where you could post anonymously. All you had to do was create an account. Well, we found that Janelle Potter had created multiple accounts, and she would post something as one person, then log in under another account and comment on it, log in to another account and comment on the previous comment that she had just made.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
On its face, it looks like there are multiple people, for lack of a better way of saying it, talking trash, but they all seem to have some common threads and be saying the same things and communicating in the same ways, using the same rhetoric, the same punctuation, the same spelling mistakes.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
They found Billy Gene Hayworth in the second bedroom, which was the baby's room. They had a seven-month-old at the time. And they found Billie Jean laying on her side in the floor holding the baby. The baby was covered in blood, but the baby was quiet at the time. Apparently, he had just cried himself out.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
It looks like there's people engaging with each other, but it's really just one person.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Once we got the social media and the internet returns on the search warrants for the email, instant messages, all that, we had found where Janelle had sent pictures of Chris. or who she was claiming to be Chris. And it turned out to be a guy that she went to high school with up in Pennsylvania.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
We found him, and she had been stealing his pictures off of social media and passing them around saying, hey, here's Chris.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
He thought that I was kidding. I mean, he remembered Janelle. He remembered having a couple classes with her. He remembered that, you know, she was kind of socially awkward, that didn't really get along with people, didn't have any friends. And he was nice to her. She has apparently held on to that her entire life.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
And unbeknownst to him, was passing him off as a CIA agent who was her guardian angel, as she called him.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
And when we called him as a witness, I remember saying, the state calls Chris Jaden. And the heir left the courtroom as this guy walked in. And Janelle Potter, if you could have seen her face... When Chris Jaden comes walking down the aisle, across the bar, and sits down in the witness chair, it was priceless.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
And over the years, people have asked me, you know, what was that case about? And there's no way for me to sit down in 60 seconds and explain to you what happened just because of the sheer unbelievability of it. How a mother and a daughter can convince a father that these two people are so much of a threat that they need to die.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
know and the way they did it you know just through these incessant constant social media and email exchanges that have to be printed and shown to buddy i mean nobody in the potter family i mean nobody had a job nobody really left the house except to go to the store and they had nothing else to do than to sit around and stew over this stuff and
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
I mean, I guess you can only be told something so many times in so many different ways before you kind of start believing it.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
I really think that had the case not been resolved as quickly as it had, that There were other people in Billy Payne and Billie Jean Hayworth's friends group that may have been targeted.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Of all the homicides I've dealt with in 15 years of practice, I mean, this was, there'll never be a more senseless, pointless murder than that of Billy Payne and Billie Jean Hayworth. There's no reason that this had to happen.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
I was actually in court that morning in Johnson County. I was notified that two bodies had been found. And as soon as I got out of court, I went down to the scene.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
There just wasn't a lot to go on. Nothing was disturbed. There was no forced entry. There were no obvious fingerprints, no bloody footprints.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Yes, this was not the typical homicide that you have in Johnson County. Most of the homicides in Johnson County are people that are familiar with each other. There's usually a lot more to work with at the scene, a little bit easier to put together. But because this crime scene was evidence-wise was actually pretty clean, that was what really piqued everyone's interest.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
By all accounts, it looked like a hit. It looked like something that had been pre-planned and carried out.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Everybody was freaking out, thinking that there's a killer out there, that they might be next, and a lot of outpouring and a lot of concern to find out exactly what had happened.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Parts of Johnson County are very rural and houses are very far apart in most of the county. But where this happened, there was plenty of houses nearby. There's a church across the hill. They had neighbors that were close by and none of them heard anything.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Both bullets were recovered. Both bullets did enter the bodies and exit the bodies. The bullet for Billie Payne was found in a pillowcase, and the bullet for Billie Jean was found in a little bouncy seat that belonged to the baby.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Further through ballistics, it was found that the bullets that were used had markings on them where whoever fired them had taken the time to sit down beforehand and carve X's into the tip of of each bullet, which basically creates almost a hollow point so that whenever they penetrate, they break up and cause more damage than an unaltered bullet would fired from the same weapon.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
The medical examiner did say that he was shot before he was cut, but the cut didn't come very long after the gunshot.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
In the days following the killings, it was very much an open question, and it caused a lot of panic in the community because there just nothing seemed to be blatantly obvious or no leads that they could really put their fingers on in the beginning.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
In the very beginning, law enforcement, they were just interviewing anybody and everybody that had any contact with Billy Payne and Billie Jean Hayworth. They spoke to friends, they spoke to family members, they spoke to neighbors, talking to everybody just to find out who might have animosity towards the couple.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Billie Payne was several years older than Billie Jean, but they got along really well by all accounts. Everybody that knew them said that they were just very jovial people, very welcoming, easy to get along with.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
It kept being mentioned that Billy Payne and Billie Jean Hayworth had some animosity with people online, specifically Janelle Potter and the Potter family.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
They had moved to Johnson County in the early 2000s from up in Pennsylvania. Marvin Potter, he had worked in construction early on and suffered, by all accounts, a horrendous fall. So he was 100% disabled. And
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Janelle, she was an adult, but it didn't seem like she was really treated like one, nor did she act like one. She was in her 30s, didn't have a job, lived at home, and was very much sheltered by the family.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Other people who were friends of Janelle's, they would say that Janelle was very, very protected, that before they could be friends with Janelle, they had to prove themselves to Marvin and Barbara. They were the gatekeepers for Janelle. And if either Barbara or Marvin didn't like you, then you didn't have access to Janelle.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
The context early on for animosity with the Potters was basically just, for lack of a better word, ignorant feuds online. Just pointless, trash-talking, negative things being said mainly towards... Billy Payne and Billie Jean Hayworth and their circle of friends.
Anatomy of Murder
Unfriended (Billy Payne & Billie Jean Hayworth)
Tracy Greenwell was Billy Payne's sister. Tracy befriended Janelle somewhat randomly, but they became friends and Tracy introduced Janelle to Jamie Curd, which was a friend of hers and a cousin of Billy Payne. Tracy Greenwell, I guess, played matchmaker between Janelle and Jamie.