Michael Shellenberger

foreign policy has this huge moral victory. We then have 9-11 and a kind of You know, an early sense of moral righteousness, and then it descends into the horrors of Iraq. And then, frankly, we went and overthrew a bunch of governments in the Middle East, surreptitiously, Eastern Europe. And it was a maniacal, I think it was just a power trip, as we would say.

foreign policy has this huge moral victory. We then have 9-11 and a kind of You know, an early sense of moral righteousness, and then it descends into the horrors of Iraq. And then, frankly, we went and overthrew a bunch of governments in the Middle East, surreptitiously, Eastern Europe. And it was a maniacal, I think it was just a power trip, as we would say.

These guys are getting off on their power. And so that when Trump gets elected, I mean, they just couldn't. They just couldn't allow a nationalist and populist to just rule. They just couldn't allow it. They had to invent this elaborate story about how he was Hitler and it was fascism and it was and there was going to be, you know, this was just like, I mean, it was insane.

These guys are getting off on their power. And so that when Trump gets elected, I mean, they just couldn't. They just couldn't allow a nationalist and populist to just rule. They just couldn't allow it. They had to invent this elaborate story about how he was Hitler and it was fascism and it was and there was going to be, you know, this was just like, I mean, it was insane.

These guys are getting off on their power. And so that when Trump gets elected, I mean, they just couldn't. They just couldn't allow a nationalist and populist to just rule. They just couldn't allow it. They had to invent this elaborate story about how he was Hitler and it was fascism and it was and there was going to be, you know, this was just like, I mean, it was insane.

There was like no evidence to support any of it. It was a complete projection of their own totalitarian fantasies on Trump. And, I mean, it's just out of Shakespeare.

There was like no evidence to support any of it. It was a complete projection of their own totalitarian fantasies on Trump. And, I mean, it's just out of Shakespeare.

There was like no evidence to support any of it. It was a complete projection of their own totalitarian fantasies on Trump. And, I mean, it's just out of Shakespeare.

It's out of Greek tragedy, Jordan, where, of course, I mean, I think everybody on the right in the United States right now is secretly—they won't say it, but they're secretly happy that Trump lost in 2020 because he comes into much more power now than he would have had in 2020, capable of eliminating—

It's out of Greek tragedy, Jordan, where, of course, I mean, I think everybody on the right in the United States right now is secretly—they won't say it, but they're secretly happy that Trump lost in 2020 because he comes into much more power now than he would have had in 2020, capable of eliminating—

It's out of Greek tragedy, Jordan, where, of course, I mean, I think everybody on the right in the United States right now is secretly—they won't say it, but they're secretly happy that Trump lost in 2020 because he comes into much more power now than he would have had in 2020, capable of eliminating—

You know, basically our most important, you know, intelligence cut out, our most important, you know, covert, overt, you know, regime change agency.

You know, basically our most important, you know, intelligence cut out, our most important, you know, covert, overt, you know, regime change agency.

You know, basically our most important, you know, intelligence cut out, our most important, you know, covert, overt, you know, regime change agency.

Yeah, and hope. Well, let's hope. We'll hope.

Yeah, and hope. Well, let's hope. We'll hope.

Yeah, and hope. Well, let's hope. We'll hope.

And so... No, I mean, look, it's an incredible story. It's an incredible story arc. I just don't think Trump really believed in God until he almost died from a bullet. I mean, all of which remains mysterious, unsolved. You have maybe the greatest innovator in American history working to reform government. You have...

And so... No, I mean, look, it's an incredible story. It's an incredible story arc. I just don't think Trump really believed in God until he almost died from a bullet. I mean, all of which remains mysterious, unsolved. You have maybe the greatest innovator in American history working to reform government. You have...

And so... No, I mean, look, it's an incredible story. It's an incredible story arc. I just don't think Trump really believed in God until he almost died from a bullet. I mean, all of which remains mysterious, unsolved. You have maybe the greatest innovator in American history working to reform government. You have...