Michael Wolff

that while they had had a close relationship, a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship, for a short period, after that, she increasingly became not his partner in crime, but his

His functionary, his employee, she was getting paid and she was carrying out whatever duties he told her to carry out or whatever duties she inferred that she had to carry out.

So I think, again, that's another misperception of this relationship.

Right, but all of this, every specific here relates to what happened prior to 2004 or 2005.

Did you guys talk about how he makes money?

I mean, how he originally made his money?

Yes, we did.

Yeah, there was a guy that Mark Epstein told me that was...

Epstein's mentor, I don't remember the gentleman's name.

He went away and he was in the, Stephen, what's his name?

Stephen Hoffberg?

Is Stephen Hoffberg?

I don't know if you know about, okay, yeah.

So did that name ever come up or no between the two of you?

He said that as well.

He said that as well, that they were not as close.

I said, you guys live a few minutes with each other.

How often do you guys have dinner or lunch together?

Not that often, maybe once every couple of years.

I'm like, you're a few minutes away.