Nadja Spiegelman

And there's other, all the makeovers sometimes involve irreversible cosmetic procedures, like pulling out a lot of teeth.

And you're saying that, that's really, that's really standard.

So, Jess...

You were a young girl growing up in a world where you were reading these magazines and being given these beauty standards.

When you were watching the show, even though the show purported to change them, it was also in many ways reinforcing them.

What was it like to revisit it now and be like, oh, that is the world I grew up in?

Wow.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it is hard not to think about sort of the currency of girls, the world of Epstein, the world of rich men, where like girlness, not womanhood, is a currency and is valuable.

And I'm glad you bring up that moment about the assault, Jess.

I think like part of what was interesting for me about how the documentary frames that is that they actually in the documentary never, I don't think they ever call it assault.

It's just that through our contemporary eyes, it is

extraordinarily clear that that's what it is.

And yet it was possible to watch that and think that girl had too much to drink and she cheated on her boyfriend.

And like and it is the Rorschach test of like actually what's happening is the context of the culture and the perspective that you're bringing to these events.

And I don't know, for me, there was something so in a way kind of healing about revisiting this because I was like, it's not just the show was bad.

This is the context that I grew up in as a person who's not naturally thin, as a person who's queer, who like these are the messages I was getting from everywhere.

I wonder if there was a way in which it made you just revisit your girlhood, your experience of girlhood in the early 2000s.

Oh, absolutely.