Nicole Perlroth

Tell us how long you have been working on the threat of cyber espionage, cyber campaigns from the People's Republic of China.

Tell us how long you have been working on the threat of cyber espionage, cyber campaigns from the People's Republic of China.

I should note here that Andrew left CISA after I interviewed him for this episode. What he describes here is what he witnessed while he was there.

I should note here that Andrew left CISA after I interviewed him for this episode. What he describes here is what he witnessed while he was there.

Pre-position on a network. That means get in and stay in. Jim Lewis puts it more succinctly.

Pre-position on a network. That means get in and stay in. Jim Lewis puts it more succinctly.

A sinking realization started to creep in. China was and is making strategic inroads into America's most critical infrastructure. They're not just sightseeing, they're strategically positioning themselves. And big picture, what Andrew and his colleagues were seeing with each new living off the land attack, with the access Chinese hackers were gaining to U.S.

A sinking realization started to creep in. China was and is making strategic inroads into America's most critical infrastructure. They're not just sightseeing, they're strategically positioning themselves. And big picture, what Andrew and his colleagues were seeing with each new living off the land attack, with the access Chinese hackers were gaining to U.S.

power and water supplies, our ports, our supply chains, our gas pipelines, our railways, aviation, all of it makes for a big red button. One CCP leadership can push in the event of a conflict. And so I'm curious what it was like inside government when you all made this realization that, oh, this is not just IP theft anymore.

power and water supplies, our ports, our supply chains, our gas pipelines, our railways, aviation, all of it makes for a big red button. One CCP leadership can push in the event of a conflict. And so I'm curious what it was like inside government when you all made this realization that, oh, this is not just IP theft anymore.

What did it take for the intelligence community to make that determination that, wait a minute, this looks like it could be the beginnings of something far more aggressive? Was it the victims?

What did it take for the intelligence community to make that determination that, wait a minute, this looks like it could be the beginnings of something far more aggressive? Was it the victims?

The PRC was inside the house, not just a fear, a fact. U.S. officials watched as Chinese hackers crept through dozens, then hundreds of critical systems across the country. Smaller utilities in Littleton, Massachusetts, major infrastructure hubs, power, water, transportation. This wasn't spycraft as usual.

The PRC was inside the house, not just a fear, a fact. U.S. officials watched as Chinese hackers crept through dozens, then hundreds of critical systems across the country. Smaller utilities in Littleton, Massachusetts, major infrastructure hubs, power, water, transportation. This wasn't spycraft as usual.

This was sabotage in slow motion, a silent crawl through the machinery that keeps America running. They weren't gathering secrets. They were laying tripwires. And that was enough to drag U.S. officials out of the shadows and into the open.

This was sabotage in slow motion, a silent crawl through the machinery that keeps America running. They weren't gathering secrets. They were laying tripwires. And that was enough to drag U.S. officials out of the shadows and into the open.

That was former FBI Director Chris Wray. In January of 2024, he, along with Jenny Sterling and General Paul Nakasone, the now former director of NSA and U.S. Cyber Command, testified before the House Select Committee on China.

That was former FBI Director Chris Wray. In January of 2024, he, along with Jenny Sterling and General Paul Nakasone, the now former director of NSA and U.S. Cyber Command, testified before the House Select Committee on China.

Three top officials speaking plainly before Congress. That should give you a sense of the severity of the situation.

Three top officials speaking plainly before Congress. That should give you a sense of the severity of the situation.