Robert Pape

So there's all kinds of factions going on in the country at the time.

Foucault, I don't know if you know that name, he's a famous philosopher, liberal,

He wrote articles for newspapers.

He was at Berkeley, and he was a big believer in getting rid of American imperialism.

So he actually went to Tehran in the early part of the revolution, and he wrote articles for newspapers.

This was before we had substacks.

And he was a big believer, and then he literally watched as the revolution he thought was so good, so well-intended, transformed into the worst, awful revolution

religious uh dictatorship essentially that he could possibly imagine and he wrote continued to write those articles until it got too dangerous and then he published it as a book so you if anybody wants to relive that period from a liberal's perspective you can read foucault's uh book on this it's the famous foucault who wrote discipline and punish that many folks will have read

And you can really get a different window into this.

From somebody who starts out all good intentions, everything looks optimistic, this thing goes completely belly up.

And I think what you're seeing here, Patrick, is the conservative flip side of that right now.

People thought, had good intentions, they wanted X, Y, or Z to happen.

They're coming at it not from the liberal side of the house, from the conservative side of the house.

And what they are seeing is the same problems Foucault saw

And it's not because it's a particularly liberal bias or conservative bias.

People don't understand that punishment...

is not a very good strategy for a country.

You get a call, you go to the White House.

Let's just say you go to the White House.

315 on February 27, Donald Trump says, hey, I've got Wyckoff and my son-in-law Kushner here, Professor Pape, will you come in on the phone?