Rutger Bregman

I mean, in the Netherlands at the time, yeah, it's pretty sad. There was a bunch of Calvinist social justice warriors who were mainly interested in their own moral purity. They didn't get much done.

I mean, in the Netherlands at the time, yeah, it's pretty sad. There was a bunch of Calvinist social justice warriors who were mainly interested in their own moral purity. They didn't get much done.

Exactly. I remember that. And we've seen the same thing in the U.S., actually. The move from the Gilded Age to the Progressive Era. And now back again. But we could then go back again to perhaps another progressive era. I do see signs of that.

Exactly. I remember that. And we've seen the same thing in the U.S., actually. The move from the Gilded Age to the Progressive Era. And now back again. But we could then go back again to perhaps another progressive era. I do see signs of that.

Look, I'm a guy who comes from the political left, so I'm all about systemic analysis. You know, I'm the guy who loves to shout, like, change the system. But then writing this book, at some point, I got this feeling that perhaps, you know, this can become a kind of excuse as well, right? You can keep shouting, like, everything's wrong with the system, but... Systems, they consist of people, right?

Look, I'm a guy who comes from the political left, so I'm all about systemic analysis. You know, I'm the guy who loves to shout, like, change the system. But then writing this book, at some point, I got this feeling that perhaps, you know, this can become a kind of excuse as well, right? You can keep shouting, like, everything's wrong with the system, but... Systems, they consist of people, right?

There's this beautiful quote from Margaret Mead, who once said that we should never doubt the power of small groups of thoughtful, committed citizens to change the world. And actually, people on the right wing side of the political spectrum, they understand that very well. You know, Trump didn't come out of nowhere. This was a 50 year project.

There's this beautiful quote from Margaret Mead, who once said that we should never doubt the power of small groups of thoughtful, committed citizens to change the world. And actually, people on the right wing side of the political spectrum, they understand that very well. You know, Trump didn't come out of nowhere. This was a 50 year project.

It started in the early 70s, probably with the Powell memo, for example, you know, this corporate lawyer from, you know, that was on the board of Philip Morris. And it was like, you know, let's build this whole movement to take over And then they created the Federalist Society and the American Enterprise Institute. You need some perseverance.

It started in the early 70s, probably with the Powell memo, for example, you know, this corporate lawyer from, you know, that was on the board of Philip Morris. And it was like, you know, let's build this whole movement to take over And then they created the Federalist Society and the American Enterprise Institute. You need some perseverance.

Yeah. So I co-founded an organization as well called the School for Moral Ambition. Everything I earn with the book is going into that.

Yeah. So I co-founded an organization as well called the School for Moral Ambition. Everything I earn with the book is going into that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We like to see ourselves as sort of the Robin Hoods of talent. So Robin Hood famously took away the money.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We like to see ourselves as sort of the Robin Hoods of talent. So Robin Hood famously took away the money.

Okay, well, there you go. For those who didn't know. And... I mean, that's a worthwhile endeavor, right? But you also need to take the talent. What we've seen in this country since the 60s and the 70s is that a lot of people used to go and work in those socially meaningful jobs.

Okay, well, there you go. For those who didn't know. And... I mean, that's a worthwhile endeavor, right? But you also need to take the talent. What we've seen in this country since the 60s and the 70s is that a lot of people used to go and work in those socially meaningful jobs.

In academia, for example, or in government, they went to Wall Street creating BS financial products or Silicon Valley creating these apps that make us all addicted. We need a talent shift. as well as a wealth distribution.

In academia, for example, or in government, they went to Wall Street creating BS financial products or Silicon Valley creating these apps that make us all addicted. We need a talent shift. as well as a wealth distribution.

Yeah, so people who are really cynical would say, like, look, it's all about the money, right? These people are just selling out. And I think that's probably true for some of them. But for, you know, back to those Harvard kids, for a lot of them, it's also the status, you know, of doing something that is actually cool, that is interesting.

Yeah, so people who are really cynical would say, like, look, it's all about the money, right? These people are just selling out. And I think that's probably true for some of them. But for, you know, back to those Harvard kids, for a lot of them, it's also the status, you know, of doing something that is actually cool, that is interesting.