Ryan Sean Adams

Maybe we could start here.

It's this idea of playfulness.

Yeah.

So if you're finding yourself in a metrified world where you're obsessing over GPAs and algorithmic scores and likes and retweets and performance reviews and all the numbers, earnings reports, all the numbers that society throws out for you,

Playfulness is a habit that can help you regularly distance yourself from the scoring systems at play.

Like, have some fun.

Is that what that means?

Can you talk about that, T?

Is that an example of your concept of reflective control?

Yeah, this is like reflective control.

Okay, so talk about that more.

Is that basically the principle when you kind of, you treat metrics like game rules, basically?

The metrics that the system hands you in your life, you treat them as much more like game rules that can be changed or modified that you can adopt when useful, but discard when they're not useful.

They no longer serve your values.

Yeah, what's the way around that?

If you feel like you're indentured into a game that you have to play it, like you have no other option.

And some of the, you know, not true games, but the gamification systems that we mentioned earlier in this episode, some people might feel like, hey, I'm trapped in the wealth game or the keeping up with the Joneses game or whatever.

It does, yeah.

I love it because I think the message of your book is one of agency with respect to the games that you play and the scores that you use to measure your pursuits and your progress.

At the end of your book, T, you have two different endings.