Sam Tannenhaus

Right.

It's not skull and bones, right?

Or Bohemian Grove anymore.

We got to do it.

And Pat Buchanan says, why are we fighting this war?

for Israel, right?

And well, and he's denounced and smeared, many respects for that.

But that was a battle about that war, which in retrospect

Well, you know, Steve, if you go back and look at the debates in Washington among

like the major like intellectual players of that era and i mean like irving crystal not his son bill no no no no irving crystal jean patrick yeah i went to georgetown after she started thinking she was a hammer and they're saying why are we looking to start a new cold war in the middle east and pat buchanan had a line and irving crystal was not just he had been i think a trotskyite

Well, I'll give you an example of this near the end of his life.

When my wife, Kathy, who got very close to Bill Buckley, as I did, we went to see him in his house in Stanford 2008.

Now we turn the clock forward.

And she said to him, well, Bill, is there any conservative writer now you really respect?

He said, Irving Kristol.

It was the one, right?

Not Bill Kristol, Irving Kristol.

Irving Kristol and Jean Kirkpatrick, you go back and look at some of Pat Buchanan's early books, including the one he wrote on how the Republicans could build a majority.

He wrote that.

Remember, he and Bill Rusher were writing this book.