Steve Joordens

He does that for a number of trials, and then he stops trying.

He just rolls in a corner.

The light comes on.

He takes the shock.

Even when you then remove the barrier, he does not leave.

He has come to a belief that there is nothing I can do to get me out of this horrible situation I'm in.

So I'm just going to roll in a ball and take it.

And that state is often connected to depression and suicide.

Yeah, yeah.

This is another issue.

I think you and I are aligned on some of our research views on animal ethics.

But yeah, absolutely.

It sticks in your mind, though.

And we see people and we feel that way ourselves sometimes.

It's a terrible feeling when we really think there's nothing I can do that will make things better.

And I think that's where a lot of these gamblers end up.

And there's a weird little step that sometimes happens in there, which is the becoming invisible cycle.

When you either on your own accord or from others, like we know this from people experiencing homelessness, that one of the things they find horrible is that people don't acknowledge they exist.

They just walk on by and that's feeling.

And sometimes we do that to ourselves with gambling.