Terrence

Bob, as well, you said back in 2018 is the last time you took a drug, yeah?

I wanted to ask you, initially, how hard was it for you to stop taking drugs?

That's just the way it is.

How many times have we had conversations about

different people after committing a very similar crime and the example yeah we would nearly be saying to each other nearly taking bets going betcha he won't go he won't he won't see the inside of a prison like jeremy even that well like the example i was going to give is you're out having a few drinks with your mates you get drunk you get in a fight you get done on assault

Do you feel like people give too much

respect to lads who have come out of prison and have done positive things with their life then you're at the coming out you're at the you're doing a lot of good with your life right now do you think there's people on the outside kind of going oh prison saved him and helped him from oh my god yes and do you think that there's some prisoners who come out and do some positive with their life and think that prison is the reason why they did it

without understanding that they worked so hard in the most vicious circumstances.

And the person who committed the crime goes into a place that increased the chances of committing that crime.

You know what I'm saying.

Do you not think that there's a way to do that, even if it's not the most heinous of crimes?

Do you not believe that there's a way to actually make it productive without it being prison and punishment and get your time done with and that revolving door that it is?

And I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but I remember when we were chanting Eddie Mullins at the time, he gave us a statistic on actually how many people go to prison and come back into prison within a certain amount of time.

Yeah, so I remember Eddie Mullins telling me that and thinking in my head, how can we call this a productive system?

So do you not think that prison could become a productive system that actually helps people to rehabilitate?

You know, I don't think that... And it's interesting to hear your point of view specifically because you come out, you've changed your life so much.

You're not the same person as you were that went in.

But yet you still sit here and you talk about how bad and cruel the system is and that the system isn't the reason why you are who you are today.

Where some people maybe... And I can't speak for everyone or anyone, actually, for that matter, but some people might come out of prison, turn their life around and think that prison is the reason why they turn their life around.

And maybe it is the reason for some people.