Tristan Harris

And that's in a weird way.

I mean, this is way better than we can do with uranium.

We can't like send a ping to every uranium and then measure the microseconds.

So there's actually certain things that are much harder about monitoring and verification for AI, but other things that might be easier because we can use digital tools differently.

I think there's a delicate thing in this conversation, which is there's this place where I think people kind of like say, oh my God, this is so hard.

Or is this ever going to happen?

And I think there's a difference between something being fundamentally physically impossible versus just extraordinarily different and would require an enormous sort of, you know, oomph of effort and resources and coordination to make happen.

And I think I hear you saying that it's the latter, but I want to be acknowledging the part in many people's eyes in years of research

you know, this being a very difficult challenge.

So the doubt about whether seismic monitoring could actually distinguish between an underground nuclear test and the rumbling around that hit that sensor versus an actual earthquake, the belief that we couldn't do that, you're saying stalled progress on building out all the verification mechanisms that ultimately did work?

I think what you're saying is just all so important because it's just legitimizing the idea that if we don't think anything's possible, then we could actually contribute to the worst things happening.

And the only way that it's even possible of getting to a better world is if we're actually working on them.

I mean, if you go back to, you know, Robert Oppenheimer in the 1960s, who believed, oh, it's like, it's impossible to...

to basically prevent the spread of nuclear weapons.

So you could say, okay, well then let's just maximize money until the world ends.

So let's just sell people uranium and get American uranium all over the world, maximize GDP growth, get 10% boost in GDP because we're just selling the whole world uranium.

We're not controlling it.

But then you basically accelerate directly into nuclear terrorism.

I think what I see, and I'm curious if you agree, what I see happening in the tech industry is the first belief is this is inevitable.

No one can stop it.