Arete Podcast with Richard Triggs
Episodes
223 Birgit Schnelle – Certified EOS Implementer – Entrepreneurial Coach – EOS Worldwide
19 Oct 2025
Contributed by Lukas
223 Birgit Schnelle – Certified EOS Implementer – Entrepreneurial Coach – EOS Worldwide by Richard Triggs
222 Andrew Rodgers – CEO of CST Hire and Non-Executive Director
12 Oct 2025
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode of the Arete Executive Podcast, I sit down with Andrew Rodgers, Chief Executive Officer of CST Hire, Chair and Non-Executive Director....
221 Damien van Brunschot – Director at EvolveResolve and Host of The Resolution Room
07 Oct 2025
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode of the Arete Executive Podcast, I sit down with Damien van Brunschot — Director of EvolveResolve, host of The Resolution Room podcas...
220 Tim Dwyer – Business Growth Strategist – Creator of the Tolemy Map
14 Sep 2025
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode of the Arete Executive Podcast, I sit down with Tim Dwyer, business growth strategist and founder of Tolemy, to explore how leaders ca...
219 Zena Burgess - Chief Executive Officer at Australian Psychological Society
07 Sep 2025
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode of the Arete Executive Podcast, I speak with Dr Zena Burgess FAICD FAPS, Chief Executive Officer of the Australian Psychological Socie...
218 Vincent Berry – Director – Commercial Litigation & Insolvency Specialist – Sajen Legal
31 Aug 2025
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode of the Arete Executive Podcast, I speak with Vincent Berry, Director at Sajen Legal, about how business owners and executives can bett...
217 Kylie Sprott – Board Director – Advisor – Speaker – Founder of Sprott Methods
25 Aug 2025
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode, I sit down with Kylie Sprott to explore her journey from senior executive roles into a true portfolio career that blends board direct...
216 Ashton Bishop - CEO - Enterprise Strategy & Marketing Specialist
18 Aug 2025
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode, I sit down with Ashton Bishop, CEO of Step Change, to talk all things marketing, such as why so much of it fails, and how challenger ...
215 Dr Gavriel Schneider - CEO & Strategic Risk Expert - Author of Presilience - Risk 2 Solution
11 Aug 2025
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode, I’m joined once again by Dr Gavriel "Gav" Schneider — CEO, author, strategic risk expert, and one of Australia’s foremost think...
214 Darren Finkelstein- International Accountability Coach
04 Aug 2025
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode, Richard Triggs interviews long-time colleague Darren Finkelstein on how accountability drives performance, reduces overwhelm, and cre...
213 Trudy MacDonald – Leadership Strategist – Organisational Psychologist – Founder of Talent Code HR
28 Jul 2025
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode of the Arete Podcast, I speak with Trudy MacDonald, founder of Talent Code HR and a former CEO of three organisations, with a backgrou...
212 - Andrew Griffiths - Entrepreneurial Futurist - Speaker - Business Author - Book Coach
09 Jul 2025
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode of the Arete Podcast, I have the pleasure of speaking with Andrew Griffiths, a renowned author and speaker. Andrew reflects on our 11-...
211 - Jake Swinglehurst – CEO – Lucas’ Papaw Remedies
09 Jul 2025
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode, I had the pleasure of chatting with Jake Swinglehurst, the CEO of Lucas' Papaw Remedies. Jake, who has been sporting his iconic musta...
210 - Rex Urwin - Business Consulting - Executive Coach - Mind Matters
07 Jul 2025
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode, I reconnect with my long-time friend and mentor Rex Urwin, who joins me on the Arete Podcast. Rex shares his journey from coaching to...
208 - Mark Billsborough - Managing Director - Bennett + Bennett
21 Mar 2025
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode, I sit down with Mark, the Managing Director of Bennett + Bennett. We discuss his experiences growing up in Brisbane, his journey in t...
207 - Nick Symonds - Architect - MAS - Architecture Studio
21 Jan 2025
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode of the Arete Podcast, I welcome Nick Symonds, the director of MAS, a Brisbane-based architecture studio specialising in hotels, resort...
206 - Matthew Dowd - Co-Founder - Keystone Training Group
27 Feb 2024
Contributed by Lukas
Growing any business takes skill, but growing one through strategic acquisitions takes a special kind of skill. It’s a skill that comes naturally t...
205 - Darren Godwell - Chief Executive Officer - i2i Global
08 Nov 2023
Contributed by Lukas
205 - Darren Godwell - Chief Executive Officer - i2i Global by Richard Triggs
204 - David Smith - Chair & CEO - Ceres Tag Ltd
01 Nov 2023
Contributed by Lukas
204 - David Smith - Chair & CEO - Ceres Tag Ltd by Richard Triggs
203 - Mark Burgess - CEO & Managing Director - Quickstep Holdings
11 Jul 2023
Contributed by Lukas
The sky's the limit when it comes to aerospace, and ASX-listed Quickstep taking that literally. I spoke with Mark Burgess, MD and CEO, about the stell...
202 - Andrew Penfold AM - Executive Director - Australian Indigenous Education Foundation
14 Mar 2023
Contributed by Lukas
When you can contribute to improving the education and prospects of young people, you can sleep at night knowing that your work is worthwhile. This in...
201 Peter Glodic - Executive Chairman - Omnii
03 Jan 2023
Contributed by Lukas
Omnii is a collaboration between some of the most talented minds in the safety and fire protection industry. Listen in as Peter shares the story of th...
200 Douglas Dart - Director - GCI Group Australia
06 Dec 2022
Contributed by Lukas
Engineering workshops have come a long way in the past 30 years. With the advent of computer-aided design (CAD), laser cutting and CNC folding, much o...
199 Nick Bamford - Managing Director - SRO Technology
29 Nov 2022
Contributed by Lukas
While most industries have embraced digital innovations over the past 30 years or so, few people probably appreciate the enthusiasm with which the ene...
198 Patricia Reid and Lee Knight - Chair and Director - Kookaburra Kids
21 Nov 2022
Contributed by Lukas
Open discussion about mental health issues has lost a lot of the stigma it used to have in years gone by. But one aspect of mental health that we don’...
197 Patrick Nolan - CEO & Artistic Director - Opera Queensland
30 Oct 2022
Contributed by Lukas
Opera Queensland website: www.oq.com.au/ Patrick Nolan on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/patrickjgnolan/ Richard Triggs LinkedIn: au.linkedin.com/in/richar...
196 Phil Shipley - Director and Co-Founder - CompliantERP
27 Oct 2022
Contributed by Lukas
While advances in technology should theoretically make things simpler, the reality is that it actually makes things more complex. Luckily though, we'...
194 Barton Green – CEO – Committee for Brisbane
15 Sep 2022
Contributed by Lukas
Few executives get through their career without having to tackle change management on multiple occasions, but few people thrive at it quite like my gu...
192 - Jack Reis - CEO, Baidam Solutions
01 Sep 2022
Contributed by Lukas
What do you do when a promising professional sporting career with the Sydney Roosters in the National Rugby League is cut short by injury? For Thursda...
191 - Mitchell Giles - CEO - Lives Lived Well
24 Aug 2022
Contributed by Lukas
How many people do you know who can be in the same job for 17 years and still feel like they are 'living the dream'? Mitchell Giles was the CEO of the...
190 - Theo Psaros - Executive Chairman - Metallica Minerals Limited
09 Aug 2022
Contributed by Lukas
The mining and resources sector often gets a bad rap when it comes to environmental credentials, but what most people don't realise is that mining is ...
189 - Yaron Lifschitz – CEO and Artistic Director – Circa Contemporary Circus
03 Aug 2022
Contributed by Lukas
Yaron Lifschitz on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/yaron-lifschitz-73683056/#experience CIRCA Website: https://circa.org.au/ Richard Triggs ...
188 - Brad Welsh – Chief Executive Officer – Energy Resources of Australia
17 Jun 2022
Contributed by Lukas
Brad Welsh on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brad-welsh-a880a449/ Energy Resources Australia Website: http://www.energyres.com.au/ Richard Tr...
187 - Leanne Harwood - President of Accommodation Association - IHG Hotels & Resorts
01 Jun 2022
Contributed by Lukas
IHG Hotels & Resorts Website: https://www.ihgplc.com/en/ Leanne Harwood on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leanne-harwood-0a89892a/ Richard ...
186 - Trevor Weatherhead - Chair - Australian Honey Bee Industry Council
22 Apr 2022
Contributed by Lukas
Australian Honey Bee Industry Council Website: https://honeybee.org.au/ Richard Triggs on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richardtriggs/ Are...
185 - Ben Strong - Director Minerals and Metals – APAC/Africa/ - Ausenco
18 Apr 2022
Contributed by Lukas
Ben Strong LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ben-strong/ Ausenco Website: https://www.ausenco.com/ Richard Triggs on LinkedIn: https://www.lin...
184 - Jared Hawkins - Managing Director - ActivTec Solutions
15 Feb 2022
Contributed by Lukas
Jared Hawkins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jared-hawkins-02404b86/ ActivTec Website: https://www.activtec.com.au/ Richard Triggs on Li...
183 - Dr Belinda McLennan - VET Development Centre
01 Feb 2022
Contributed by Lukas
VET Development Centre Website: https://vdc.edu.au/ Richard Triggs on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richardtriggs/ Arete Website: https://...
182 - Cyrus Allen - Managing Partner - CapFeather
19 Jan 2022
Contributed by Lukas
Cyrus Allen on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cyrusallen/ CapFeather Website: https://www.capfeather.global/ Richard Triggs on LinkedIn: htt...
181 - Jarrod Stephenson - General Manager - CadMac
18 Jan 2022
Contributed by Lukas
It’s always nice to speak to a business leader who understands the power of community. Jarrod Stephenson is the GM of CadMac: agricultural machinery...
180 - Alex Gransbury - Founder and Managing Director - Dreamfarm
29 Oct 2021
Contributed by Lukas
We speak to a truly inspirational guy on this episode. An inventor, business owner and thoroughly entertaining conversationalist, Alex Gransbury regal...
179 - Rob and Natasha Collins - Founder - Tidal Solutions
17 Oct 2021
Contributed by Lukas
Tidal Solutions, founded by Natasha and Rob Collins in 2009, provides the Mining and Oil & Gas industries with complete maintenance solutions, includi...
178 - Alan Sparks - Senior Executive - Harris Technology
29 Sep 2021
Contributed by Lukas
We’ve spoken to some high flyers in our time, but you’d be hard-pushed to find an executive who has hit the heights of Alan Sparks. What hasn’t ...
177 - Michael Baldwin - Regional General Manager - RPM Global
15 Sep 2021
Contributed by Lukas
Michael is the Regional General Manager for Asia, Russia, and Australia for RPMGlobal (aka RPM). RPMGlobal (Runge Pincock Minarco) Holdings Limited op...
176 - John Grant - Executive Chairman - First Wave Cloud
14 Sep 2021
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode of the Arete Executive Podcast, I talk to John Grant. John is the Executive Chairman at FirstWave Cloud Limited. FirstWave Cloud Limit...
175 - John Wilton - Managing Director PSSS and Nick Barnsdall - CST Hire
03 Sep 2021
Contributed by Lukas
It was great to hear from two big hitters in an industry that is thriving in uncertain times. John Wilton is the MD of Piping Speciality Supply Servi...
174 - Gavriel Schneider - CEO - Risk 2 Solution
24 Aug 2021
Contributed by Lukas
Gavriel Schneider is the CEO of the Risk 2 Solution group, founder of Presilience & program director at ACU, chair, and member of the Global Advisory ...
173 - Mushfiq Rahman - Executive General Manager - Valmec Limited
11 Aug 2021
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode of the Arete Executive Podcast, I talk to Mushfiq Rahman. Mushfiq Rahman has worked in diverse roles in his career – from owning his...
172 - Mark Campbell - CEO - DBM Vircon
11 Aug 2021
Contributed by Lukas
My guest today has had an interesting and varied career, starting with the UK Navy, where he flew helicopters among other duties, and working through ...
171 - Judah Rowe - Director - Vard Group
10 Aug 2021
Contributed by Lukas
Some people have a vibrant energy about them that you can’t help but like, and today’s guest is one of those people. Judah Rowe is a serial innova...
169 - Bruce Youlden - Managing Director - Educare
09 Jun 2021
Contributed by Lukas
Our guest for this episode is Bruce Youlden, the MD of Educare: a multi-disciplinary health practice incorporating, pediatrics, psychiatry, psychology...
168 - Shane Mulholland - Investor, ITAD Business Leader & Company Director - Greenbox
04 Jun 2021
Contributed by Lukas
Have you ever wondered what happens to your computer hardware when you don’t need it anymore? We speak to someone whose company offers a landfill-fr...
167 - Terry Aronson - Treasurer - Coorparoo RSL
21 May 2021
Contributed by Lukas
It’s very hard to sum up the career and life of Terry Aronson… what hasn’t this man done? Starting out in Sydney with his own highly successful ...
166 - Mark Edmonds - Experienced Non Exec Director and Business Coach
16 May 2021
Contributed by Lukas
We’ve got a real all-rounder on the latest Arete podcast. Mark Edmonds is currently a business mentor with MRE Consulting and the part-owner of the ...
165 - John Perry - Managing Director and Owner - Conquest Capital
09 May 2021
Contributed by Lukas
John Perry has gone through everything you could imagine on his executive journey. He’s been a CEO in a high-pressured corporate environment and he’...
164 - Mick Carter - Director - Beyond Clarity
02 May 2021
Contributed by Lukas
What an enthusiastic and innovative guy we have on the show this week. Mick Carter is the CEO of Beyond Clarity: a company that provides ambitious and...
162 - Stijn Koppers - Energy Industry Executive - Banpu Energy
14 Apr 2021
Contributed by Lukas
We’ve got a super-interesting story from our latest guest, Stijn Koppers. Stijn is the CEO of Banpu Energy Australia - a renewable energy resource a...
161 - Tony Eyres - Founder/Executive Chair - Rounding Up
13 Apr 2021
Contributed by Lukas
We have quite a range of subject matter on this episode of the Arete podcast. Tony Eyres was our esteemed guest: a man just as comfortable in the boar...
160 - Jeanette Jifkins - Director and Commercial Lawyer - Onyx Legal
13 Apr 2021
Contributed by Lukas
Our latest guest is a real visionary. As Principal of Onyx Online Law, Jeanette Jifkins pioneered digital legal advice and remote working long before ...
159 - Glenn Shepherd CEO - National 360
11 Apr 2021
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode I talk to Glenn Shepherd: a highly successful exec who tells the story of how he managed to become the top dog of a company who weren’...
158 - Leanne Williams - Chief Executive Officer - Myli
05 Apr 2021
Contributed by Lukas
This week’s Arete podcast really demonstrates the value of a CEO with an open mind. The CEO in question is Leanne Williams from West Gippsland Libra...
157 - Simone Dowding - Chief Executive Officer at Storytowns
28 Mar 2021
Contributed by Lukas
We go really deep in this week’s Arete podcast. Our guest Simone Dowding was recently voted into Inside Magazine’s top 50 businesswomen, but it wa...
156 - Dennis Cronje - Managing Director at InMode
21 Mar 2021
Contributed by Lukas
Dennis Cronje tells us how he used his autonomy to deliver incredible results at InMode. As MD of ANZ, he is an integral part of a truly global busine...
155 - Sean Simmons - Chief Operating Officer - Fallon Solutions
18 Mar 2021
Contributed by Lukas
Not knowing an industry is a challenge many executives face when they climb the ladder, so we thought it would be good to speak to someone who overcam...
154 - Cheryl Barrett - CEO of Southern Cross Support Services
17 Mar 2021
Contributed by Lukas
It’s always good to talk to someone with such wide-ranging experience, and it’s even better when they’re incredibly successful. Cheryl Barrett i...
153 - Scott Douglas - Senior Manager IT Operational Services - Reserve Bank of Australia
15 Mar 2021
Contributed by Lukas
Just how do you learn the ways of mergers and acquisitions (M&A) across the world if you’ve never done it before? Scott Douglas tells us how. The Ma...
152 - How To Make Manufacturing Profitable In Australia, With Scott Trenoweth
05 Mar 2021
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode I speak to someone who has accomplished a very rare thing these days: a hugely successful manufacturing operation in our own country. ...
151 - Futurist, Analyst and Strategist, Larry Quick
02 Mar 2021
Contributed by Lukas
We cover some heavy global matters on this week’s Arete podcast with Larry Quick: a man whose job it is to help companies understand how macro issue...
150 - How to Make Your Company Safe, With Gareth Davies
23 Feb 2021
Contributed by Lukas
Too many businesses treat health & safety as a box-ticking exercise, but if you listen to our guest this week, you’ll realise what an empowering for...
149 - The Power Of Psychology For Better Change Management, With Meg Hooper
15 Feb 2021
Contributed by Lukas
Wouldn’t we all like to get inside the heads of our colleagues to understand why they might be resistant to change? Meg Hooper makes a living out of...
148 - Connecting Small Businesses with Corporate Buyers & Making a Social Impact - Sandra D’Souza
08 Feb 2021
Contributed by Lukas
The social impact of what we do in business is becoming more and more important, so it was great to speak to someone who is making a success of marryi...
147 - Bridging Strategy and Culture to Manage Change, With Don McKenzie
01 Feb 2021
Contributed by Lukas
If you crack change management then you’ve cracked a key component of business, so it was great to talk to Don McKenzie from the Adizes Institute ab...
146 - How Breathwork Can Take Executives To The Next Level With Rex Urwin
24 Jan 2021
Contributed by Lukas
We all need someone like Rex Urwin in our lives. The Managing Director of Mind Matters and an expert of all matters of the mind makes it his business ...
145 - Bridging Creativity And Business With Paul Fairweather
17 Jan 2021
Contributed by Lukas
What an incredible conversation I had with Paul Fairweather, an esteemed creative who gives masterclasses on how we can succeed in business by discove...
144 - Alice Evans - CEO True Relationships and Reproductive Health
11 Jan 2021
Contributed by Lukas
Alice Evans is a great example of an executive who knows how to broaden their horizons and innovate in whichever environment she finds herself in. Alt...
143 - A Bright Future for Executive Tech Recruitment With Ross Collins
15 Dec 2020
Contributed by Lukas
Ross has had an extraordinary journey getting here, having worked in 15 different countries around the world! He’s been in the information technolog...
142 - My Wise and Dear Friend, Colin Clerke
10 Sep 2020
Contributed by Lukas
In this special episode I interview my dear friend Colin Clerke. I was a coaching client of Colin’s before and started referring clients to him. A f...
141 - Rob Ashdown Interview: Renewable and Clean Energy Markets
31 Jul 2020
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode, we have an interesting discussion with Rob Ashdown. He is the founder and Chief Executive Officer of Clean Energy Transfer Fund (CETF...
140 - Brad Shaw - Director of InterFinancial Corporate Finance
22 Jul 2020
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode, I interview Brad Shaw. He is currently the Director of InterFinancial Corporate Finance Limited, an independent corporate finance and...
139 - Paul Avey - Chief Executive Officer of Concept Environmental Services
16 Jul 2020
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode, I interview Paul Avey, the Chief Executive Officer of Concept Environmental Services, a provider of fluid process solutions to the re...
138 - Essence Of Harrogate with Anthony and Melanie Baker
10 Jul 2020
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode, I interview Anthony and Melanie Baker, a husband and wife team who owns and manages Premier Building & Construction. This episode tho...
137 - Nathan Psaila - National Sales Manager - RDO Equipment Australia
27 May 2020
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode, I interview Nathan Psaila - National Sales Manager for RDO Equipment, agents for agricultural, construction and forestry equipment. H...
136 - Jo Boyce - CEO - Crookwell/Taralga Aged Care
09 Apr 2020
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode, I interview Jo Boyce - CEO of Crookwell/Taralga Aged Care. Crookwell/Taralga Aged Care is a merger of 2 organisations responsible for...
135 - Introducing The Arete Champions’ Forum
02 Apr 2020
Contributed by Lukas
For the past 2 years I’ve been running the Arete Breakfast of Champions, small in-person breakfast meetings of executives from non-compete fields fo...
134 - The War For Executive Talent In A Coronavirus-Affected Job Market
02 Apr 2020
Contributed by Lukas
This is one of a series of special episodes we’ve put together to assist executives while the coronavirus/Covid-19 situation is upon us. I asked Bre...
133 - Vinod Muthanna - CEO and President - DBM Vircon
01 Apr 2020
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode, I interview Vinod Muthanna - CEO and President of DBM Vircon. DBM Vircon is a merger of 3 companies and he leads the integration and ...
132 - Executive Career Coaching During Turbulent Times
26 Mar 2020
Contributed by Lukas
This episode was recorded at the end of March 2020, just as severe restrictions were taking hold due to the Coronavirus/Covid-19 threat. While you mig...
131 - Grant Moyle - CEO - XLM Systems
11 Mar 2020
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode of the Arete Podcast, Richard interviews Grant Moyle - the CEO of XLM Systems. XLM Systems helps mining businesses switch from mechan...
130 - Bill Petch - CEO - Leukaemia Foundation of Australia
16 Sep 2019
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode, I’m chatting with Bill Petch, CEO of the Leukaemia Foundation of Australia, about his first CEO role and how he’s managing such a...
129 - Mark Denning - Owner/Managing Director - Fallon Solutions
30 Apr 2019
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode I chat to Mark Denning, owner and managing director of Fallon Solutions about risks he’s taken over the years, investing in training...
128 - David Carter - CEO - Suncorp Banking & Wealth
23 Apr 2019
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode I chat to David Carter, CEO Suncorp Banking & Wealth about some of the issues facing the banking industry and the challenge of restori...
127 - Ben Fewtrell - CEO - MaxMyProfit
15 Apr 2019
Contributed by Lukas
Building a business based on something you love is easy. Building a business that works without your constant attention isn’t. Too many business o...
126 - Craig Whitehead - CEO - Queensland Symphony Orchestra
09 Apr 2019
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode, I delve into the arts sector with Craig Whitehead, CEO of the Queensland Symphony Orchestra (QSO) to learn more about the business an...
125 - Headhunted Shortlist - Testing Executive Talent In The Marketplace
01 Apr 2019
Contributed by Lukas
What do you do when you’re thinking about replacing a current employee who is underperforming? Or have a position to fill and an internal candidate ...
124- How To Win The War For Talent: Building Your Personal Brand As An Executive
25 Mar 2019
Contributed by Lukas
Competition in the workspace is high nowadays, so career development is no longer just about doing a great job, whatever your role. If you want to get...
123- Moira Harris - Managing Director - Hygrade Water
14 Mar 2019
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode, I chat to Moira Harris, the managing director of Hygrade Water Australia, a family-owned startup. The company manufactures, import...
122 - Arete Executive Panel Discussion with Ian Sampson, Michael James and Natasha Howie
12 Mar 2019
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode I’m joined by three company directors, each with a unique outlook on the past, present and future of business. My three guest spea...
121 - Interviewing 101: Techniques To Help You Bag Your Next Executive Role
04 Mar 2019
Contributed by Lukas
It’s always a good idea to go to an interview fully prepared. While some people have great interview skills, others may need to practise prior to me...
120 - Jason Cubit Interview - Developing With A Purpose
26 Feb 2019
Contributed by Lukas
In this episode, I chat to Jason Cubit, CEO of not-for-profit Horizon Housing Company, based on the Gold Coast. The company, which is celebrating its ...
119 - Interview Techniques For Employers - How To Find The Right Talent
19 Feb 2019
Contributed by Lukas
In the last episode of this Interview series, we looked at good interview techniques for candidates. Now, we’re flipping the table and looking at go...