Kate Bowler is officially over being grateful. Not because gratitude doesn’t matter. But because it’s been pushed as the latest iteration in a long series of self-help projects that are more obligation than opportunity. “It’s become a new form of toxic positivity or a despairing hopefulness,” says Bowler on this week’s Big Books and Bold Ideas, “that if you list enough things, you can stack up everything you are grateful for and then determine to be happy.”That’s a sharp contrast to joy, which Bowler says is available even in the midst of the messy muck of every day. “Joy is going to make you say thank you. It is so good to be,” she says to Kerri Miller. “But it’s not something you can achieve by climbing this grueling ladder called gratitude to the top rung.”Bowler’s candid, funny and refreshing treatise on joy is captured in her new book, “Joyful, Anyway” — and on this week’s Big Books conversation. Guest: Kate Bowler is the author of many books including, “Everything Happens for a Reason: And Other Lies I’ve Loved,” host of the podcast “Everything Happens” and a professor at Duke University’s Divinity School. Her new book is “Joyful, Anyway.” Subscribe to the Thread newsletter for the latest book and author news and must-read recommendations.Subscribe to Big Books and Bold Ideas with Kerri Miller on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, RSS or anywhere you get your podcasts.

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“What did the council decide on item 42?” — answered with the speaker and the moment.

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