“There is always violence bubbling under”
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Alan Gilson and John Walsh, welcome to the programme.
Hi, Derval.
It's good to have you both here. Glencree, Alan, were you affected by the fires at all?
Yeah, I've just driven down from the Glencree Valley and certainly the smoke was very bad yesterday. It depends on the wind, but, you know, as you were saying earlier, you know, Glencree and the Military Road is absolute no-go and... It's quite stark, you know, when you read about what's happening in Spain and France and then literally your house is enveloped in smoke. It's a real reminder. You know, it certainly strikes me, you know, I know we're going to talk about our own divisions on this island. But, you know, when you look at, you know, the evidence of climate change all around us, that it's not the first thing on the agenda of all governments at the moment seems shocking.
You are both here to talk about a documentary which, John, you wrote and, Alan, which you directed called The Irish Question, which explores the whole question of a border pole and unity, which is, John Walsh, it's very much being talked about now. But you've been thinking about this idea and the need to talk about it for quite a while. What brought you to the two of you together?
I know it's called the Irish question, but really it could have been called the British question. And I suppose the starting point for this really was the Brexit referendum. I was working as a journalist at the time for The Times, the Ireland edition of The Times. And I was, you know, looking at Brexit, but not very seriously, mainly because I didn't think the British people would vote for it. But about a week before the referendum, I had an off-the-record conversation with somebody who was looking, scoping out Brexit from an Irish perspective. What would be the implications for Ireland? And it was obvious during the course of that conversation, it would have enormous consequences. I mean, you were basically riding a horse and carriage through the Good Friday Agreement,
And what was also very evident is that Ireland, if you remember, didn't feature during the referendum. In fact, there was a radio journalist caught up with Nigel Farage on the campaign trail and asked him what would be the implications for Ireland if there was a yes vote for Brexit. And his response was, don't worry, we'll still buy your Guinness.
Yeah.
But he wasn't alone, and we might get to Nigel for hours, that particular political phenomenon later on. But what I remember at the time is even then, the then, there have been many of them, the British Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Theresa Villiers, she told people there'd be no issue at all for the Irish border, which was as ludicrous, it seemed to me, as the €350 million claim on that famous Brexit bus.
Well, if you remember, she actually made those comments. It was an edition of the BBC politics programme on the Sunday before the referendum. And she was on with Peter Sutherland. Peter Sutherland, the former head of the World Trade Organisation. If there's one person who knew about the implications of Brexit for trade, it was him. And she basically dismissed him as being one of these experts who was just scaremongering that Europe, the EU, was the failing project. Once the UK was out, it would be free to negotiate trade deals wherever it wanted. And basically, there was no downside to Brexit. Certainly, when she was asked about the implications for the border, you know, it was just... You could tell she hadn't... I mean, even though she was a Northern Ireland secretary, she really hadn't thought about the implications for Northern Ireland.
So then... The referendum was on the 23rd of June. And on the 24th of June, Mark McGuinness called for a border poll on Irish unity. And it was the first time in my lifetime that I went, right, this is it. We're actually on the countdown now.
So you approached Alan about this. And Alan, what were your sort of thoughts at that time about unity and, you know, a united Ireland? I mean, what drew to you as a filmmaker?
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