Chapter 1: Why are Elon Musk and Sam Altman in a courtroom battle?
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Yhteisellä matkalla. Kun häly katoaa, on helpompi keskittyä olennaiseen. Siihen, mikä vie minua eteenpäin. Kun markkinat heiluvat, Nordea Private Bankingin asiantuntemus ja oma sijoitusjohtajani tuovat selkeyttä kohinnan keskelle. Siksi valitsen kumppanin, joka vie minut askeleen edelle.
So, two of the most powerful men in the tech world walk into a courtroom in California. One of them wins, but which one?
I can't believe you're starting this show with a dad joke. Well listen, it's better than most of my other jokes. We are of course talking about on the one side Elon Musk, one of the most powerful tech figures in the world. On the other, Michelle? Sam Altman from OpenAI. I mean this is like a divorce playing out and it's kind of parents fighting over who gets the good silver, although in this case of course we're talking about AI.
Jos sinä kertoisit minun jokseni, voimme saada jonkinlainen perustus myöhemmin tämän programin jälkeen. Tämän esityksen Business Dailyin katsotaan reputatiivisen vaikutuksen molemmille ihmisille.
I'm Rahul Tandon in the BBC studios here in the UK. And I'm Michelle Fleury in New York. And I have an empty chair next to me, Michelle, where Will Bain would normally be. He's gone off to watch some football in Istanbul, wasted his money there. So, who have we got instead this week then, Michelle? We have Lily Jamali, our very own North America technology correspondent, joining us with all of the kind of detail and gossip from the proceedings.
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Chapter 2: What were the key arguments presented in the Musk vs Altman case?
I'm the one who's been cackling in the background to your dad jokes this whole time. I thought they were funny. Do you know what, Lily, you can come back on any time. We don't need to have Michelle on every week if you ask me. For those who don't know, Lily, give us the background to this case. Why were these two powerful individuals who shape our life in court?
Se oli Elon Musk, joka saati meitä kaikki yhdessä. Se oli osa tätä lainsäädäntöä, jota hän valitsi vuonna 2024 OpenAI, Sam Altmanin, OpenAI-presidentin Greg Brockmanin ja Microsoftin kanssa. Hän lainsäädäntösi 150 miljardia. Hän halusi nähdä OpenAI-mahdollisuuden uudistamista.
Ja myös Sam Altman ja Greg Brockman haluavat, että Altman ja yritys on luottanut tarinan, jota hän on asunut niiden kanssa vuonna 2015. OpenAI, he luovat sen yhdessä. Ja Musk teki 38 miljoonaa donatiivia niissä alkuperäisissä. Eli se oli se, johon hän suuri.
It was ultimately OpenAI and company that won this case. This was a jury of nine Californians who ruled unanimously in less than two hours, by the way, that Elon Musk brought his lawsuit too late. So we're talking about winning on a technicality? We are. All they had to rule on was the statute of limitations, which basically nullifies the rest of the legal arguments here.
Raul, olet ollut tyytyväinen viikko, koska tiedän, että olet puhunut ja saanut reaktioita tekemisestä. Minä puhuin Kara Swisherista. Hän on hyvin tunnettava tekijärjestelmä. Hän on uusi Devil Wears Prada-filmissa, jos haluat katsoa. Tämä on se, mitä hän teki.
Koko group of Silicon Valley are adult toddlers is what it says to me. And I'm sure the jury of normal people were like, who are these crazy people? The bunch of really sloppy, selfish, petty people fighting with each other over money. They have billions of dollars already, but they want billions more. You know, first of all, Elon, whose reputation has gone into the trash heap here in the United States.
Tämä on iso ongelma. Sam Altman on todennäköisesti mahdollisesti epäonnistunut, ehkä hän on hieman manipuloitava. Minä en oikein kiinnosta, mitä he ovat kuitenkin. En halua heitä käsittelemään kaikkea. Ja se on iso ongelma tässä. Se on ongelma.
It's adult toddlers with God complexes. It's classic Silicon Valley. You've got Elon Musk doing his maximum chaos routine. You've got Sam Altman, the tech saint, both fighting over a company that started as a charity but ended up as this huge cash machine. Is this now completely over, Lily, given the central question wasn't answered?
Se tulee menemään. Elon Musk on soittanut soittamaan, ja luulen, että tämä ajatus siitä, että asia on soittanut teknisellä tavalla, tulee olemaan iso osa asiaa. Se, että asiat eivät olleet soittaneet. Hän uskoi, että se toimii järjestelmällä, ja hän soittaa asiaa 9. järjestelmällä täällä Norjan Kaliforniassa.
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Chapter 3: How did the jury's decision impact the reputations of Musk and Altman?
Does it matter what they're like? I mean, who cares? As long as they're good at what they do, if they're narcissists, if they're toddlers, if they produce a good product that we all use, what difference does it make?
Se, mikä oli niin mielenkiintoista, oli se, että teillä oli myös kaikki nämä protesterit. Lisäksi tehtäviä, jotka olivat tehtäviä, jotka olivat tehtäviä, jotka olivat tehtäviä. Tehtäviä, jotka olivat tehtäviä, jotka olivat tehtäviä.
Kaikki nämä ihmiset eivät ole tärkeitä tärkeästä teknologiasta. He ovat kiinnostuneita työtä. Olemme jo nähneet näitä tärkeitä tärkeitä viime vuoden lisäksi. Tärkeitä maailmasta. Sitten kun olet koulussa kuunnella näitä ihmisiä ja puhua siitä, miten he ovat hyviä. Että he ovat oikeat tärkeitä tärkeästä teknologiasta. Se oli niin erilaista.
I was reading something in The Verge Lily, which was talking about Musk versus Altman, and it shows that this was led by the wrong people. But what about OpenAI itself? Doesn't it leave it with a massive branding problem? OpenAI is...
to be too big to fail at this point. I think there's people who would push back on that notion, certainly, because they are also burning through cash. It takes a lot of money to pay your scientists, to buy the infrastructure you need to develop AI. So there are people who think that that cash burn is just too severe for them to make it much longer. But at the same time, they continue to get investments from all corners.
They are headed for an IPO to potentially value them at a trillion dollars. And so it's kind of hard to see how this thing might come off the tracks at this point. Yes, Sam Altman did suffer some personal reputational damage. He was painted as manipulative, as a liar. But he's still there, even after the trial. I'm not hearing a lot of clamoring for him to go anywhere.
I mean, there was that stunning moment, wasn't there, when he was testifying and he was asked whether he was trustworthy. It was almost like he had to think about that. And that must have some damage, doesn't it, Lily? I know that you've been at the court, outside the court. This is what OpenAI's lawyer William Savitt said when the case, much to Lily's delight, finally ended.
What OpenAI has been and will become is an organization that from top to bottom is committed to its mission with a non-profit organization in a controlled position organizing the development of safe AI for the benefit of all humanity. That's what the message of today is.
Okay, that might be the message, but is it going to be OpenEye? There's some other companies. Is it the companies that weren't involved in the court case, both of you, that are going to be the winners? Is it, you know, is it Anthropic, who weren't involved in the case, who think, great, let them square up to each other in court. We'll just calmly get on with our business.
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Chapter 4: What implications does this case have for the future of OpenAI?
We just heard there from William Savitt, OpenAI's lawyer. I want to go back to kind of the other side, the argument being made by Elon Musk's lawyer, Mark Tobaroff, who kind of described this, I guess, as a dangerous precedent.
You have essentially a new formula for startups. You take publicly subsidized funds in the form of a charity, and when your ambitions require more money, you simply put all the fruits of that revenue, the technology in this case, into a for-profit apparatus, and the directors and officers of the charity are enriched to the tune of billions. It's a brand new formula for Silicon Valley.
A brand new formula. I mean, just to be a bit skeptical here, it does feel like they're both kind of putting out competing narratives, like the battle isn't over here. And I think that's a lot of what this whole case has really been about. You know, it is about the reputations of these two people. And that sort of takes me back to 2015 when Elon Musk's reputation was at its apex. Sam Altman was this up-and-comer. He was not a household name by any means.
OpenAI auttoi edistämään Sam Altmanin suhteen. Elon Muskin maini argumentti, jonka kuulimme OpenAIsta, oli se, että hän on pelkännyt siitä, ettei hän saa saada hyötyä. Hän ajatteli, että hän jätti OpenAI läpi, kun hän jätti yrityksen vuonna 2018. Sitten he loppuivat tekemään hyvää ja lauskuivat ChatGPTä muutaman vuoden myöhemmin. OpenAI on sellainen asia, jossa ei ole tarinoita.
Protecting the integrity of non-profits across America, as Mark Tobaroff laid out just there. Yeah, that is definitely their side of it. Musk obviously had a very different side of it. You're listening to Business Daily from the BBC World Service. Today we're looking at the implication of Sam Altman's court victory over Elon Musk this week. What does it mean for the companies involved with the two men? And more importantly, what does it mean for us and the future of AI?
Kun häly katoaa, on helpompi keskittyä olennaiseen. Siihen, mikä vie minua eteenpäin. Kun markkinat heiluvat, Nordea Private Bankingin asiantuntemus ja oma sijoitusjohtajani tuovat selkeyttä kohinnan keskelle. Siksi valitsen kumppanin, joka vie minut askeleen edelleen. Nordea.fi kautta Private Banking.
Normalissa emme juhli mitään juuri nyt. Ja sitä on syytä juhlia. Saat nyt Maybellin huuliöljyn hintaan 9,50. Säästä nolla euroa. Voit myös ostaa kolme Sens Beauty kasvonaamiota kolmen hinnalla. Ja säästä nolla prosenttia Maybellin peitevoiteesta. Voimassa joka päivä. Mitä vähemmän ostat, sitä halvemmaksi se tulee. Normal. Pysyvästi edulliset hinnat.
And that's where we're going to get to now. And we're all very busy people, because Michelle not only is on this podcast, she has to go off and give the business news to all of you across the world. She's going to have to go shortly. So let us look at that, because why do we care about this case? Well, they are characters and they get us talking, but this is shaping our lives at the moment, AI. So not just what did it mean for these two, what has it meant for all of us, the way that this case has ended?
I'm fascinated by the signal it sends to the rest of the tech world when you've got two such huge names involved in such a big, nasty and expensive and high-profile visible fight. If you are a startup trying to build AI, particularly if maybe you want to pick up that mantle and make it for the good of humanity, good luck trying to survive the crossfire from these giants that are racing to dominate this industry.
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Chapter 5: How might this trial influence the broader tech industry?
I think that when we first started looking at this trial, we were thinking about what are the implications for all of us? What are the implications for how artificial intelligence is shaping our lives? I think this really was a company news story in many ways about OpenAI. It is one of the biggest players in the AI race. If Elon Musk had gotten his way, he would have knocked out one of the biggest players, clearing the way for AI.
ja myös hänen omaa AI-tarkastelua, jota muistakaa, että hän suositti vuonna 2023 XAI.
which has been embroiled in all kinds of controversy, he would have potentially kneecapped a major competitor that didn't end up happening here. And so what you really have at the end of it is a maintenance of the status quo, OpenAI being able to continue forward, continue with its IPO plans. And so in a sense, not a lot is changing. It's sort of a continuation of where we've been for the last couple of years.
Michelle, I know you've got to go, so we're going to wave goodbye to you. Off you go and do your work on the TV. But thank you, as always. Speak to you next week. We'll have Will back. Sorry to skate out before the end. No, no, no, no, no, totally understandable. Lily, one of the things about this case is we don't like these two men. We don't want them running what is so important to us, which is so important in our lives. So who is going to run it?
Is this the moment for more regulation, for governments across the world to say, hey, we're not going to let the tech bros run this, we're not going to let China run this, we're going to have to do something about it. Is that where we're heading towards?
I think if there is going to be regulation, it's going to come from your side of the pond and not mine. We've already seen that with Elon Musk's XAI. They were embroiled in controversy over the last year on a number of fronts. The meaningful action, the probes have all come from
EU, Francia, Yhdysvallat. Emme tehneet paljon täällä Yhdysvaltojen tasolla. Jotkut valtiot ovat yrittäneet muuttua tuohon suuntaan, mutta mielestäni, mitä tärkeää tästä on, on se, että olet oikeastaan oikeassa. Tämä todella tärkeä teknologia on käsitellyt vain muutama, suurin piirtein, mies.
And what we saw in this courtroom was just a lot of pettiness, a lot of personal animus towards one another. And you saw it in the emails. You saw it not just in the testimony, but in the emails and the text. It was like kids in the playground, wasn't it? Yeah. You saw Musk, for example, offering to give his co-founders at OpenAI Tesla Model 3s while they were negotiating how much control he would get. You have...
Sam Altman sanoi, että yhdessä Elon Muskin idea, että antaa open AI lapsille, on yllättynyt. Olemme oppineet, että Muskin antoi syrjään yhdelle yritykselle, kun hän näki, että hän ei ollut lapsilla, joilla on myös lapsia.
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Chapter 6: What are the potential regulatory outcomes following this high-profile case?
So you have graphically there once again described some of the bits of those court cases that I recall following and sort of ended up with my jaw open at some of the stuff that was coming out of it. But you know what struck me last night on one of our business programs? I interviewed a young girl, a young student from Arizona University who'd been in the crowd as students jeered, booed.
Eric Schmidt, Google-johtaja ja Arizona-yliopistossa. He aloittavat opiskelua ja etsivät työtä, eivätkä löydä mitään. He heittivät häneltä, kun hän puhui AI ja sen vaikutuksesta yhteiskunnassa. Mennään loppuun. Olemme nyt yhteiskunnassa. Olemme ymmärtäneet AI. Ajattelimme, että tämä olisi hienoa. Minulla on nuoria nyt. Minun pitää vain ajatella, onko AI tekemänsä työtä. Onko AI-mahdollisuutemme muuttu?
Olen todella iloinen, että voit esittää esimerkkinä Ericka Schmidta, Google-johtaja, koska mielestäni se on todellinen taito. Berkleyn yliopistossa on järjestelmä, joka aloittaa lapsia sosiaalisen media-appien jälkeen. Mielestäni siinä on todella parempia paralleleita. AI on olemassa olemassa.
elämässämme tavallaan, jota emme kaikki halua olemaan. Jos tekee Google-tutkimuksen nyt, minä tulen tekemään jotain AI-tutkimusta, Google Gemini-tutkimuksesta, onko minä tykkään siitä vai en, onko minä pyydän siitä vai en. Ja nämä lapset Berkley-kampusissa sanovat, että me olimme yleensä guinea-pigit sosiaalisesta mediasta, ja se on muuttanut ympäristöämme, se on muuttanut sosiaalisesta elämäämme tavallaan, jolla emme ole onnellisia.
We just think that's really unfair and we want to spread the word. I think this ties back into AI also, this idea that we are once again, all of us, guinea pigs in this grand experiment being helmed by these billionaires.
I think there's a lot more awareness about the potential problems with just allowing tech to dominate our lives in particular ways. I think there's a lot more resistance to AI given the experience with social media than there would have otherwise been.
Well, Lily, as always, thank you so much for joining. Of course, there is an appeal, part two of the court case to come up. Lily will be following that very closely. Thanks to Michelle, of course, in New York. Do subscribe to our podcast. Just search for BBC Business Daily wherever you get yours. And whilst you're there, please leave us a rating and review. We'd love to hear where you are listening to us. I'm Rahul Tandon. Thank you very much for listening.
Omalle paikalle istuessaan Jenni oli melko varma, että hän oli tehnyt koko vaunon parhaan lippudeelin. Tartu sinäkin junantuomiin etuihin ja nappaa tarjoushintaiset junaliput kesäkohteisiin nyt. Kampanja on voimassa 24. toukokuuta asti. VR. Yhteisellä matkalla.
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