What Chimpanzees Reveal About How We Connect and Divide with Aaron Sandel
episodePreviously titled “What Chimpanzees Reveal About How We Connect and Divide” — renamed by the publisher on Sep 3, 2026
The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam Grant
1h 21m
2 speakers
8 chapters
transcribed 13 days ago
Transcript
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Transcript generated automatically by AI and may contain errors.
What sparked Aaron Sandel’s lifelong fascination with great apes and led him to study chimpanzees?
Today on the Curiosity Shop, you're going to meet some interesting characters. You're going to meet Gus, an awkward teen who's having a tough time finding his way with some of the tougher guys in the group. You're going to meet Christine, who has a new baby named Isabel, and an older daughter named Nadine. You're going to see Nadine's frustration. Ooh, we're going to talk about that, about having a little baby. in the neighborhood now who's getting all the attention. We're also going to talk about Jackson, the 31 year old alpha of the group, who is currently being challenged by a new very aggressive male. Who are these folks? These are members of one of the largest chimpanzee communities in the world.
And on the Curiosity Shop this week, we're talking to anthropologist and primatologist, Dr. Aaron Sandel, about what he and his colleagues have learned about alliances, social structures, and the violence that can tear communities apart.
The story of the Ngogo Chimps is the subject of the Netflix documentary Chimp Empire. Today, as humans navigate war, polarization, and growing distrust, we'll ask Aaron what we might be able to learn from the Chimps and Ngogo about how social bonds are built, how they break, and why they're so critical to holding communities together.
Welcome to the Curiosity Shop,
a show from the Vox Media Podcast Network.
So today Adam and I are both excited. I'm losing my mind. We have Dr. Aaron Sandel. He's an associate professor in anthropology at the University of Texas at Austin. He is co director of the Ingogo Chimpanze Project. He received his PhD in anthropology from I'm gonna have to give this to Adam, the University of Michigan. There you go. I'm giving it to you. He studies our closest ape relatives to understand social bonds and the emotions that animate them. Since twenty twelve he has studied wild chimpanzees at Nangogo and Um in Uganda. We're excited he's here. Let's bring him on. First of all, welcome.
Thank you.
And I hope you've cleared your calendar. Because I am in full look at it, I can't even take it. I am in full on five year old kindergartner mode. I have questions about questions. Perfect.
I mean, Brene, you've been talking about chimps and wanted to do an episode on chimps since before we had a podcast together.
Okay, so let's start with what's on your website. I love this. So on your website you write, We are facing crises of loneliness, polarization, and conflict. Why? Part of the problem is that we don't fully understand the nature and importance of the social bonds that hold communities together. You write, I study our closest ape relatives to understand social bonds and the emotions that animate them. I have studied chimpanzees in Uganda since twenty twelve, including a rare violent conflict between chimpanzees. I am expanding my research now to mountain gorillas and humans. Love this. You write, I draw from evolutionary biology, anthropology, and psychology, and I use a range of tools including network analyses, machine learning, and endocrinology to understand how social bonds are formed, maintained, and sometimes fall apart.
Let me ask you this question. I have so many questions. Like I wanna know if Abraham's still leading the pack over there or if he ever really fully took his role as the alpha. Can we just start there?
Yeah, Abrams in the central group. Uh he should be still the alpha. Yeah, he took he he fully became the alpha 'cause Chimp Empire was filmed mostly around twenty twenty one. And um that was right as he was sort of trying to establish himself. I don't wanna give spoilers. I mean, there could there's gonna be a lot of spoilers that we discussed today for those who haven't seen Chimp Empire, but Yeah, he became the alpha of the central group. And there's not a lot of competition there, so he's he's been able to hold that position.
I had an overunder on Gus coming out and whooping some Abrams ass and taking over because look, I had to call my husband like five times and he's like, get off the chimp empire.
No, I love that. Yeah, Gus' uh great chimp.
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Chapters
8 chapters
1
What sparked Aaron Sandel’s lifelong fascination with great apes and led him to study chimpanzees?
0:00–12:52
2
How do chimpanzee social bonds and friendships form within the Ngogo community?
12:52–25:47
3
What caused the Ngogo chimp community to split into Western and Central groups?
25:47–38:33
4
How did the rise of the alpha Jackson trigger lethal conflict between the groups?
38:33–52:00
5
What can we learn from chimpanzee friendships and alliances about human relationships?
52:00–1:04:06
6
How do chimpanzees express emotions and comfort each other without language?
1:04:06–1:15:44
7
What parallels exist between chimpanzee social dynamics and human polarization and conflict?
1:15:44–1:21:22
8
What surprising insights did Aaron share in the lightning‑round about language, emotions, and future research?
1:21:22–1:21:25
Speakers
2 identifiedMore from The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam Grant
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