Chapter 1: What impact does technology have on our physical movement?
Somebody told me the other day, like, they're like, yeah, did you know that we didn't used to talk about being in nature until the Industrial Revolution came along? Because we were always in nature. I was like, that's kind of like how we have to talk about movement. Like, did we ever say, like, did you move your body today in 1750? Probably not. Everyone was moving their bodies.
But that is where we are today.
From the TAP Audio Collective, this is Design Matters with Debbie Millman. On Design Matters, Debbie talks with some of the most creative people in the world about what they do, how they got to be who they are, and what they're thinking about and working on. On this episode, a conversation with journalist Manoush Zomorodi about why it's so important to move your body in the age of screens.
To me, there is nothing that a short, boring walk can't fix.
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Manoush Zomorodi is a journalist, author, and longtime audio storyteller whose work explores how technology is reshaping our minds, our bodies, our attention, and our sense of what it means to be human. We'll be right back.
Her book, Bored and Brilliant, began as a public experiment with listeners and became a widely resonant investigation into boredom, creativity, and the power of reclaiming our attention. Her brand new book, Body Electric, The Hidden Health Costs of the Digital Age and the New Science to Reclaim Your Well-Being,
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Chapter 2: How did Manoush Zomorodi's upbringing influence her perspective?
Can we just, can I say something? Of course. You guys, huge bucket list moment. Like, going on Debbie's podcast means you've, like, fucking made it. So... It's also therapy. Free. You have to do it publicly. All right. Manoush, is it true that Bridget Jones Diary is your favorite book? Oh, it was. There was a moment where I thought I was Bridget Jones. Like, please don't think less of me.
It was the 90s. And there was a lot of... Trying to be a journalist. And I worked for the BBC and I smoked cigarettes and went out a lot and maybe tried reducing at times. And yes, there was a hot minute. Again, this is a terrible way to start this conversation, Debbie. We've set the floor down here. We can only go up, I suppose. I actually was really impressed. I love Bridget Jones. Oh, Arnie!
No, I totally love that book. I still really feel like I... I mean, Bridget Jones' Baby didn't really need that one. I didn't see it. You're missing a movie. Okay, here we go. Manoush, you're half Persian and half Swiss, first-generation New Jersey-born daughter.
Chapter 3: What is the significance of movement in the digital age?
Born in New York. New York, New York? New York, New York. All right. Well, you were raised in New Jersey. That is so true. Daughter of psychiatrists working in private practice and academia. What did those early layers of identity teach you about belonging, observation, and moving between worlds? Where's my sister? Okay, there she is. So thanks for starting an argument that will probably go.
I've been thinking about this a lot, actually, because I do listen to your show and I have thought, you know, how do I make sense of this? I think we had a very unusual upbringing in that we were not part of a church or even any kind of community. So there was no sense of hierarchy or that certain people could do certain things.
Like my parents came to the United States because they were each going to do a year at a hospital. And that's where they met. And then she didn't want to move to Tehran and he didn't want to move to Geneva. So they ended up in New York, as you do. And I think they're both kind of black sheep in their families.
So when they settled in New Jersey, in the wilds of New Jersey, I think there was a sense that you just do your work and you go to school and you do your thing. And there was not any sense of like the homeland. Both of them are not nostalgic people. They're not religious people. they're not political.
And so in some ways, that was hard, because we didn't have a community, we had to make our own way. But on the other hand, I think it gave us a freedom that like, well, you can do whatever you want, just figure it out. So I'm grateful to them in some ways for that. But it's also been very, I realize it's very unusual.
I understand that when you were in the fourth grade, you wanted to be an actress. Yes.
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Chapter 4: How does boredom relate to creativity and technology?
Who doesn't in the fourth grade, right? Yeah. No, I felt special on stage. It was fun. What kind of theater were you doing back then? Oh, I played the Wicked Witch. I played all the old mean characters, which were my favorite, because then you get the best roles. You get to be evil. You get to treat people terribly. You get to pretend you're old. It was really a delight.
Then in high school, you were on the varsity ice hockey team. But you said that it wasn't because you were any good. No, I sucked. How did you make the varsity team? Well, so I went to a prep school that this was the first year that they had any girls at the school. So they had to populate all of the athletic teams. So if you could skate, you were on the varsity ice hockey team.
I sat on the bench. The entire time. But I could skate, just not in an aggressive way at all. I was like, take the puck, dude. Like, it's fine. I don't really care. So evil on the stage, but not on the ice. No, not on the ice. No.
you've written about how you were a diligent student in high school and did well, but that you didn't realize that you needed to manage up and manage your teachers in order to get A's instead of B pluses and And minuses. When did I say that?
Chapter 5: What are the health implications of a sedentary lifestyle?
I can give you the. No, no, it's all good. It's all good. So I was wondering what you meant by managing up your teachers. Okay. I do know what this means. I will never forget at graduation where I was talking to one of my teachers who was all pally-pally with another one of the students. I was like, you know, she's friends with all of you. Why is that?
And she said, the teacher said to me, oh, she talks to us just like we're normal adults. And I was like, oh, so in some ways, the deference that my parents had taught me to those who are elders, those who are senior, those who are, you know, teaching you didn't count in the United States. In fact, I think it almost was a mark against you. And if you could hang...
That gave you access in a way that I had to learn by watching people. It is not something that was seen as acceptable by my parents, who very much you do things a certain way and the teacher is always right. And I learned a lot because this was a person who didn't have great grades, but boy, could she hang. And she got into a lot of places because of that.
And there was an ease that she had that I was like, Oh, okay. Like stop trying to be right and do the right thing and respectful. Yeah. So her personality really pushed her forward. Yeah, definitely. You attended Georgetown university. You studied English and fine arts and, At that point, you had given up your aspirations to be an actress? Yes. Yes.
What did you think you wanted to do professionally at that point? I had no idea. It was the 90s, again, back to Bridget Jones.
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Chapter 6: How can small changes in movement improve overall well-being?
Something I like to read and I like to draw, so that's what I did. I mean, how... How privileged does that sound in this day and age? But that's kind of what it was. I went to college and tried to just learn. I really liked observing people. It took me a while to find my people, though. I thought college was...
when I got there, it felt like very much the same of the prep school that I'd gone to. There were a lot of people wearing baseball hats and I was like, Oh no, not this again. Um, so I thought I was going to leave. I applied to transfer and then I ended up staying and, um, and I just, it just took me longer to find those people.
In an interview with CNN, you were asked what advice you would give to your 18-year-old self, and you stated, take an economics class. Oh, yeah. Yes. Why that particular advice? I mean, everything is economics, Debbie. Let's face it. Planet Money is on the bestseller list. That...
I think, honestly, as we have seen since I was 18, the last 30 years, if there's anything that has shaped our lives and the way we work and the way we live, it's capitalism. And basic economic concepts, I think, are something. And also how to handle your personal finances. Those are the macro and micro. Micro should be the two things that every student has to learn. I still stand by that.
Do you regret having a major in fine arts and English? What's the point of regrets, Debbie? Well, I mean, if we had to redo it, would you? I often think if I had the chops, the intellectual chops, I would have loved to have been a scientist.
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Chapter 7: What is the relationship between interoception and technology?
But, you know, I don't really understand physics. That's a problem. Yeah, no, me neither. Totally. Totally. That's a really interesting question. I mean, I did a whole semester on one poem. That just seems so indulgent and yet kind of delicious. Who gets to do that? Nobody. My major is English. My minor was Russian literature. I have a college degree in reading. Yes.
And we are really good at it, Debbie. We are really good at reading. Clearly.
Clearly.
It's about thinking, right? That's all those things were to me. To me, the art was like looking at something and seeing it a different way. And then the reading thing was like trying to read between the lines and sometimes a little too much, I think. Yeah, I mean, in an effort to understand my guests, I try to envision why they did certain things. So I was thinking about, well, why did...
why did Manoush do that? And I was thinking, well, English teaches you to follow argument, metaphor, structure, and voice. Fine arts teaches you to look closely, notice composition, material, negative space. And that's sort of the way you tell stories. Exactly correct, Debbie. That was why.
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Chapter 8: What actionable steps can listeners take to enhance their health?
I wrote that and I thought, you know, I just nailed her right there. That's Manoush. Totally. After graduating from Georgetown, you began your career as a reporter and a producer. You worked early on for Reuters and BBC News. This really surprised me in finding this about you.
Your early assignments included flying into Belgrade in a rickety ex-Soviet military jet with a forged visa, carrying a bulletproof vest across borders, training for kidnapping situations, and learning to decode warning signs from guerrilla fighters. Give us some some background. OK, so I have to explain how I ended up working for the BBC for a decade.
And the way it started was I literally there was still such a thing as the white pages. I looked up BBC. I called the bureau. The bureau chief happened to pick up the phone and I was like, hey, I want to be an intern. He was like, cool. What's that? And I was like, I come and work for you for free. He's like, sounds good. Can you come Monday? I was like, yes, I will. I mean, it was that simple.
And I was lucky that I didn't need to be paid. And then every time I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do with my life. They were like, well, you could stay here. And that went on for 10 years. And I think part of what, why did I call the BBC? Cause I thought I was going to be a documentary filmmaker. I was like, that sounds cool. But this was the news organization.
And, uh, that was actually really interesting. Cause it was the best people watching just the drama that was going on behind like the hard tour charging correspondence. And like, they were all British and all the producers were American. And there was this weird sort of semi-class warfare going on in the office itself. And then the editor was crazy. She could go off at any moment.
Like the whole thing was fascinating. And then occasionally they would all look at me and I would do something for them and then they would look away. So like the whole, and then it just sort of kept going like this to the point where I just was part of the
the furniture and they kept offering me jobs and I kept doing them and I was cheerful and I asked a lot of questions and I was curious and I never wanted anything. And that's very, uh, I think British not to be too thrusting as they say. And so, um, I ended up being a journalist and then I, they started sending me to all these weird places and I just worked really hard and I
Every time I went somewhere, I was like, whoa, we have just been put into the strangest subculture. Whether that was like, you know, farmers out in Iowa, story about Monsanto, or going to Serbia and, you know, the civil war about to happen.
Like, every time I went somewhere, it was the same thing that I'd seen happening in the Bureau, that there was this sort of microcosm of life and all the ways that people talk to each other fascinated me. And I would also add... Oh, this goes back to English and fine art. Yes. At the time, this was really, I think, the golden age of broadcast television.
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