AI for Surrogate Decision Making?!? Dave Wendler, Jenny Blumenthal-Barby, Teva Brender
episode
GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast
47 min
3 speakers
8 chapters
transcribed 9 hours ago
Transcript
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What is the overall focus of the episode on surrogate decision‑making and AI?
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And if you'd like to donate, go to jerrypal.org, click the donate button so you can donate your tax-deductible donation to the Jerry Pal podcast. Thank you. Welcome to the Jerry Powell podcast. This is Eric Guadera. This is Alex Smith. And Alex, we got a full house today.
We got a full house. We are delighted to welcome back returning guest Jenny Blumenthal-Barbee, who's a philosopher and bioethicist and associate director of the Center for Medical Ethics and Health Policy at the Baylor College of Medicine. Jenny, welcome back to Jerry
Powell. Thanks. Good to be here.
And we're delighted to welcome Teva Brender, who's a third-year resident in internal medicine at UCSF. Teva, welcome to the Jerry Pal podcast. And finally, our last guest is Dave Wendler, who's a senior investigator and head of research ethics at the National Institutes of Health, Department of Bioethics. Dave, welcome to the Jerry Pal podcast.
Thanks for inviting me. So Alex, we're going to be talking about AI and surrogate decision making. AI is a big, big topic. Is this crazy? Maybe. We'll see. But before we jump into that, who has a song request for Alex?
So I wanted to request Someday Never Comes by CCR. Why did you request this song, Dave? It's a little bit autobiographical and that goes into the session. When I was younger, I was the kind of kid who didn't ask questions of other people. I tried to figure things out on my own. I remember one time I was trying to figure out how vision worked and I had this whole theory. I'm a youngest kid and then I'd talk to my older siblings about my theories and they'd say, in this case, look, that's stupid. People figured this out a long time ago and they'd tell me. And so I always thought, oh, I see. When you get older and you become an adult, you understand everything. And so that was my assumption. I got to be an adult.
I realized that wasn't true. And then I sort of despaired for a while. And so I think the challenge, and I think the challenge with surrogate decision-making for decisionally incapacitated patients is realizing we're probably not going to get it right. Not always anyway, but still we need to really work hard. It's important and try to do the best we can. So some days never going to come. We're never going to get this perfect, but hopefully we can do better in the future.
Yeah, fun choice. And I think this was the last song that CCR recorded as a single and released. Here's a little bit of it.
First thing I remember Was asking Papa why For there were many things I didn't know And Daddy always smiled You took me by the hand, saying someday you'll understand. I'm here to tell you now, each and every mother's son, you better learn it fast, you better learn it young, cause someday it never comes.
That was awesome. Thank you, Alex. Great song request, Dave. So I'm going to turn to you, Dave. We're going to be talking about AI and surrogacy. What issues are we dealing with right now with surrogacy? You highlighted some of them in the song request. How do you think about that? Right.
Well, first I just want to say I appreciate Alex, I don't know if this is intentional, adding a little of the John Fogerty twang into that song.
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Chapters
8 chapters
1
What is the overall focus of the episode on surrogate decision‑making and AI?
0:00–13:27
2
How do the guests describe the current problems with surrogate decision‑making?
13:27–20:33
3
What evidence exists about surrogate predictive accuracy and surrogate‑related trauma?
20:33–27:05
4
How does the Patient Preferences Predictor (PPP) aim to improve surrogate decisions?
27:05–30:03
5
What are the proposed AI‑driven use cases for predicting preferences, outcomes, and functional status?
30:03–36:45
6
What ethical, legal, and privacy concerns arise from using AI in surrogate decision‑making?
36:45–43:46
7
How realistic is the timeline for implementing AI tools like the PPP in clinical practice?
43:46–47:07
8
What are the final thoughts and take‑aways for clinicians, patients, and policymakers?
47:07–47:51
Speakers
3 identifiedMore from GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast
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