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Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
It's a Lot is recorded on Gadigal land. We pay our respects to the traditional custodians of this land and to elders past and present. We also would love to extend our respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people listening today and remind you all that sovereignty was never ceded and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land. It's a lot, isn't it?
Wow, what an honour to talk to you, Roxane Gay. Thank you so much for your time. Welcome to It's A Lot. There's so much that I could talk to you about that I was saying to my producer, Amy, before. It's like going to a high-quality buffet.
Like we were kind of panicking before this episode because we were thinking, what do we talk to her about in a way of, you know, do I get the mousse or the cheesecake at the dessert buffet? Like everything that you have written and said is ā so prolific and poignant and insightful. So welcome to the podcast and let's get started.
My first question for you is a question that I've had for a lot of different feminists that I've had on the podcast and I'm looking to you for some guidance in this. That is about the regression of feminism in the past decade or so, but particularly I would say in the past decade
two or three years even just societally with the rise of the manosphere and with the stripping of roe v wade and even in in my work i've noticed much more extreme violent misogynistic language and abuse and harassment and the media how do you see these changes, how have they impacted society as a whole tangibly? And do you see any hope of us undoing that regression with our current strategy?
Well, these things are cyclical. So yes, we are going to find ways to overcome this regression. We are going to resume making progress because history has shown us this. But I don't know that our current strategies or lack of strategy is going to be the way forward. Right now, we see a lot of passivity and a lot of, let's listen to both sides.
But when one side doesn't believe women are people who deserve rights, who don't believe women should have bodily autonomy, who don't believe that women should be able to have no contest or no-fault divorces, we're not really... What is there to talk about with these people? What kind of common ground is there to find?
Right.
a lot of times people treat bigotry as a valid perspective. And I am simply at a place in my life where I'm no longer interested in doing that. And so we really need to make clear what's at stake. We need to remember that
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Chapter 2: What is the state of feminism in 2026?
And I think it's an incredible choice for women to make. But my mom really had to trust my dad, who fortunately is an excellent man. And quite frankly, she ran the household. He gave her his paychecks. She was never in danger. But she told me many times that she never regretted her choice, but she also knew that she had chosen the right man. Mm-hmm.
And divorce statistics show us that most people don't choose the right partners for whatever reason. Marriages end, and that's okay. There's no shame to it. But... Do you really want to put yourself in a situation where if your marriage ends, you are left penniless and you are forced to go into the workplace anyway?
And so one of the key things that I think we have to advocate for as feminists is what kinds of protections will we make available for women to be able to make these choices, to be able to stay at home and raise their family if they so choose, but then also not end up destitute if a marriage ends. Prenups are a great way of going about this, even if you don't have significant means.
But a lot of women are not ready for that conversation. A lot of women are telling themselves this is forever, despite so much evidence to the contrary. I hope it's forever. I really, really do. And then we also have to recognize that media literacy is really important because a lot of women are choosing to become trad wives because they're following trad wives on social media.
Trad wives who, by the way, are professionals. These are women who are working. I look at like, I enjoy Nara Smith or Nara Smith and her content on TikTok. I find it to be hilarious. I think she's incredibly witty. I don't think a lot of people give her credit for how witty she is. And she makes like ridiculous things while wearing haute couture and it's hilarious.
And it makes seem that she has a soft life, but she has like four or five children. She also has a wealthy ā she's wealthy herself as a model, a very successful model. She is married to a successful model. They live in a very beautiful home, I think, in Connecticut. They make oodles of money, and she is absolutely a breadwinner in that family.
And so, yes, she's projecting a trad wife life, but ā It is one ensconced in privilege that most people will never, ever have access to. And she is actually working. And I will say to her credit, she is not actually encouraging women to become trad lives in any way. Then you have like Ballerina Farms, who is married to the heir to the JetBlue fortune. And again, this is not really disclosed.
And so, yeah, it looks great for her to live on her farm with her ye old kitchen and her 5,000 children. Mm-hmm. And I'm so happy for them. But so much of what they are promoting is not realistic for most people. Farming is actually extremely expensive. It is backbreaking work. It is not glamorous. Most people do not get to stroll around the farm being followed by someone who's filming them.
And so, yeah, you want that life, but you want that life exactly as it's being communicated to you, not as how it would be lived in your shoes. So we need to really do some work to educate people about what they're actually choosing and also recognize that people are going to make that choice and nothing will make people embrace a bad choice faster than telling them they shouldn't be doing it.
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Chapter 3: How do glamorized lifestyles like 'trad wife' affect women's rights?
And they go, why does no one want to fuck me? Why is no one banging on the door? And having been a woman in her 20s before, the fact that men have not stepped up in the past 20 years, 30 years, 40 years, is wild to me. Because it's really that simple. Bathe. Apply some deodorant. Wash your clothing so that you don't smell like body odor and mildew.
No.
Learn about something to talk about in addition to video games. It's okay to like video games. I love that. I have two brothers. Love them for their video game nonsense. Look whatever you're interested in. Legos, Marvel films, Star Wars. It's okay. But you have to also ask women questions. You have to have conversations. And I wish that older men...
would sit down with younger men and say, you're not getting laid because there's nothing appealing about you. And a lot of them have decided, and this is where the incel community is so pernicious. They have decided that the problem is that they're not attractive enough and that they have to like hammer their faces, which is completely mentally ill.
Or they have to buff up and do this and do that. And it's like, no, they have to be millionaires. It's like, if that were the case, no man. Would be having affection and relationships. You don't have to do that. You have to have a personality. And that's too much work for a lot of young men who feel like their grandfathers and maybe even their fathers just had to exist and have a penis.
And women would somehow treat that like a honing beacon and they would just sort of geolocate with their vaginas.
Well, this is what I was going to say is when you were saying these older men should sit them down, do you think these older men are even aware that this is the core issue? Because they've gone throughout their marriages by just having a penis, like you said, and being the breadwinner and they are out of necessity when we're marrying them.
So do you think these men even have the language or the knowledge to sit these men down and give them a bit of a shaking?
I think some of them do because ā I have to say, men always accuse me of hating men, which I don't. Or like, you must only know terrible men. And the fact is that I only know impeccable men.
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Chapter 4: What strategies can help address the regression of women's rights?
The men in my life are outstanding. They're hilarious. And they're men. They're not like some sort of neutered version of a woman. They're men. Some of them are even bros. I don't care. What they do is respect women. They respect people. They are gainfully employed or looking for work or getting an education. They have hobbies. They have interests.
And they adore the women in their lives if they happen to be straight. That's it. And so, like... I think these men exist. I do think some of them are exactly as you say. They're like men who didn't have to do anything and modeled absolutely nothing. And women know now that we deserve better. And we also know that we have options.
There are so many things, so many advances that frankly, feminism has allowed for that have allowed women to decide, I would rather be alone than be with someone with one towel. Put that on a t-shirt. Put that on a bumper sticker. You know, it's so sad. I remember when I was 19 years old. I was, you know, 19. And I had a one-night stand with a guy. And there was cat litter all over his floor.
He did not have a fitted sheet. So, like, this is not new. He was interesting enough. Like... He had long black hair and he kind of looked like the crow. And so I was just like, this is hot. And looking back as an adult, I'm like, girl, why did you let your body be on that bed with all of the cat hair and cat litter and love yourself a little more? Yeah.
I just think that younger women love themselves just enough to hopefully avoid that situation or to only have it once so that it's formative and it reminds you like never again. Because after that, I really did start making sure that the men I had dalliances with had sheets.
And like you basically clean a home and it doesn't have to be pristine, but the home has to show that you understand that you have to wash your bathtub. Yes. That's a baseline that we should expect. Literally. The toilet has to be scrubbed. Yes.
Period. Period. When you were talking about, you know, men that are exhibiting these positive attributes, my partner is one of those men. He's a musician here in Australia and he's a public figure as well. He's been a musician for over 10 years.
And when he got with me, he's written songs about me, been outwardly loving towards me, been what I would say is a great example for young men and for men in terms of love. As a result of that, he has been a victim of online targeted harassment, comedians, quote unquote, dressing up as him, people in comment sections saying that I abuse him because he speaks kindly about me.
He's regularly now getting, as we walk around our suburbs, men are yelling out of cars, we're going to kill you, you fucking cuck, F slur, homophobic slurs. All these things are happening as a result. Now, we all know why that's happening. I don't even think we need to get into that, the homophobia related to misogyny. And I've spoken length about this.
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Chapter 5: How does media literacy impact women's choices today?
We deserve more. We deserve robust policy. And I also think that a lot of politicians are cowards and they're afraid of alienating voters by taking a stand. But for me, what I vote for is people who take a stand. I don't even have to agree with your entire platform. But do I agree with the things that are most important to me? Yeah, that's good enough. And
Somewhere along the line, a lot of Americans in particular got the idea that if I don't agree with 100% of a candidate's platform, then I can't support them. I feel like everyone has non-negotiables that you don't have to compromise on. And that's totally fine. But let's take public education, for example.
I think public education is incredibly important and that vouchers and charter schools are a huge problem. But if a candidate supports vouchers, that is not necessarily a deal breaker for me. I will push back. I will hold them to account. I will think very carefully about whether or not they're going to get my vote.
But I'm not going to say, oh, you don't get my vote if they also do things like support robust housing options for unhoused people, if they support public health care options, if they support all of the things that really matter to me. And so I wish we could stop treating politics like... a Burger King, where you can have it your way. That's just not how it works. This is a democracy.
And that means that we have to be able to hold different perspectives and still come to some kind of consensus. And we just are not seeing that. And it is going to be our downfall because Republicans do one thing well. They get on the same page. Most career Republicans hate Donald Trump because he's Donald Trump. They hate what he stands for.
They hate what he's doing to the party, but they're like, eh, we're in power. We're going to sort of fall in line. And they have fall, they have fell in line since what, 2000 and not 2008, was it? No, 2008, 2012 for at least a decade. It's impressive and also sad and pathetic. Donald Trump has done some of the most unspeakable things, both within the United States and internationally.
And Republicans won't even push back a little bit. But that unity is something Democrats could get on board with in terms of, it's not to say we... don't hold our politicians to account because we do. Just recently, Eric Swalwell, a Democrat from California, had to drop out of the governor race here in California and also had to resign from Congress because it turns out he is a sexual predator.
And what I like about being a Democrat is that we are not going to look the other way on our non-negotiables just to have the right kind of person in power. And so we need to borrow some of the unity of the Republicans and also reject their absolute lack of morality, ethics, or decency. And I think that those things are possible. Mayor Mamdani in New York is incredibly promising.
Abigail Sparnberger in Virginia is There are some progressive candidates and Sponberger is not super progressive, more of a centrist, but she's doing some interesting things in Virginia and she's actually getting things done. Westmore in Maryland. There are some really great people who are trying to make a difference. And I wish that we could coalesce around them more effectively.
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