Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
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We are in a moment for pop music right now where there are so many young women making music that reflects how women are talking about dating these days, which is quite pessimistic. I think that the reception to some of the I love my man so much elements of the Taylor Swift album is evidence. I'm glad you brought up Taylor Swift. You're glad? I was like, I regretted that. No, go ahead.
Sorry.
If there's one thing you might take away from listening to some of the top songs on the charts lately, it's that the pop girlies are sick of men.
Here's a snippet from Sabrina Carpenter's Man Child.
Never heard of some kid Have your brain just ain't there And here's Olivia Deen's Man I Need. Come be the man I need Tell me you got something to give I want
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Chapter 2: What is heteropessimism and why is it significant today?
Okay, different vibes, but you could argue that these ideas, ranging from men are trash and men need to do better to please come through for me, please step up, are cut from a similar cloth. And NPR music editor Hazel Sills told me that this trend has a name.
Heteropessimism is basically the phenomenon of, like, expressing embarrassment or fatigue about being a heterosexual. It was also coined in 2019 by the writer Asa Saracen in an article for The New Inquiry. It often comes up, at least I see, in conversations from straight women around heterosexuality. You know, there are feelings about being in a heterosexual relationship.
And these different approaches coincide with a pretty significant shift in women's mindsets when it comes to romantic love. For instance, earlier this year, I saw so much chatter about a Wall Street Journal article titled, Are Women Giving Up on Marriage? We even discussed it on this very show. It was basically about how more women are choosing to be single.
So I had to know, how has this strain of heteropessimism made its way into the top 40?
Chapter 3: What role does Taylor Swift play in the current music landscape?
And what does it say about where heterosexual women are broadly with romance? Editor for NPR Music, Hazel Sills, is here to break it all down for us.
Thank you for having me.
Well, buckle up, y'all, because whether you're straight, queer, or anything in between, we are here to complain with you. Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. We're going to get into all of it in a minute. But first, I'm not going to lie.
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Chapter 4: How are pop songs reflecting women's frustrations with men?
Visit plus.npr.org today. And I left you a link in the description of this episode. And of course, thank you. I wonder what makes this moment different from sort of previous iterations of men are trash. Even just thinking one example off the top of my head, like not to sound like a really annoying millennial and rather like hyperbolic about it, but like
There are specific Destiny's Child lyrics that are burned into my brain. Yeah. You know?
No, yeah. No, it's interesting. So you bring up Destiny's Child. I think that this moment is sort of similar to the past, but also different. So when I hear this...
group of young women singing about relationships i am reminded of that like late 90s early 2000s era of r&b when we got like we got like say my name we got no scrubs we got it's not right but it's okay we got like oh he wasn't man enough yes yes sorry i'm like screaming i'm like I'm like, yes.
And because there was kind of that like girl power streak, you know, in the late 90s where you had these women who were, you know, writing these just amazingly brutal kiss off songs to these guys who were just like cheating on them or they were broke and, you know, they weren't they weren't quality. They weren't stepping up.
But I do think that this moment is different to me because when I hear these songs, I don't hear you're dead to me because you cheated on me. You're not cool because you're broke. Like, I hear women who are writing very specifically about inequality in their relationships. So there's another song that came out this year by the R&B artist Summer Walker called No.
And I think this is a very, very highly underrated song, no matter what you feel about her album, Finally Over It. I think this song is really good. But in the song, she's basically like... I'm not going to slave over, you know, the stove to make dinner for you. And I'm not going to deprioritize myself in this relationship.
Like, you need to get used to hearing the word no, like, that is not a song where she's like, we're breaking up. That is a song where she's like, things need boundaries. Yeah, things need to change. And so I think that this moment is different, because I think you know, we're in this moment right now where women are more aware than ever of those inequities in their relationships.
Like you guys did an episode earlier this year about, you know, women not getting married. Why aren't they getting married? And it's because, you know, women are more educated these days. Like sometimes they're more financially well off than their male partners in the dating pool. And so I think that,
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Chapter 5: How is the trend of 'men are trash' music evolving?
Right. Yeah. I do think these women are, you know, writing from their own experiences and they're having fun with it. But I do think that there is, you know, a benefit to kind of like cashing in on this trend. Like it's like it feels like a response to what women are talking about and what they care about right now. Coming up.
To me, it really does feel like a turning point in this trend and into a like, well, here is what I need. More with Hazel after the break.
In an article for NPR Music, you actually compare the pop musings of starlets like Sabrina Carpenter and Olivia Rodrigo with Olivia Dean. Just to keep things straight, because I know we introduced two Olivias to you all. Olivia Dean is a Afro-Caribbean British singer. songstress, who we actually have had on this show before, thank you very much.
And she kind of makes sort of pop that feels a little upbeat and nice and easy and is very much about love. And Olivia Rodrigo, who makes, who's like a bit younger, American and makes music that is so reminiscent for me of like the sort of stuff that I liked when the kind of pop punk that was really popular when I was in middle school or high school.
But yeah, what makes Sabrina Carpenter and Olivia Rodrigo's sort of shade of heteropessimism different or kind of related to Olivia Dean's?
Yeah, I think, like, you know, Sabrina Carpenter and Olivia Rodrigo, they're sort of operating from the stance of, like, boys can kick rocks. Like, it's very, like... It's very, like... Sabrina Carpenter is especially really good at this, whether you love her or hate her.
She is always kind of skewering men in her music and telling them how stupid they are, how they're not living up to her expectations. She has a huge hit this year called Man Child, which is basically... You know, the message of it is like she's telling a guy, why can you not do anything yourself? Like, why do I have to do everything for you? Why do I have to always pick up after you?
Olivia Deen's song is really fascinating to me because especially coming out in the same year as a song like Man Child, they're contrasting.
kind of expressing at their core the same request which is like can you step up to the plate like can you be the man that i need you to be and olivia dean is doing it with this real kind of earnesty and like sweetness and she has real sincerity yeah she's she's like can you please like open up to me? Can you please be the person that I need in a relationship?
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Chapter 6: What does the Wall Street Journal article reveal about women's views on marriage?
I mean, it's like that to the title. It's like, does she want to get him back as in like give him his just desserts? Or does she want to get him back as in like get him back into her life? Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. And I think like the Olivia Dean song, Man I Need, is probably, you know, to me, it really does feel like a turning point in this trend and into a like, well, here is what I need. And she needs her partner to open up to her. She needs intimacy. She is saying the things that she needs.
One last question. How do you see this trend continuing? Or do you see it lighting up in any way?
I don't see it letting up. I feel like it's going to continue, but I think it's going to conditions. Well, you're to answer your question. Whenever men get better, this trend will end. No, I think it'll continue, but I think it will continue to transform. I think that maybe it's going to change and be a little bit softer. Yeah.
You know, because the thing about so much of these songs, it's like it's not like I want to be single forever. It's like I really want to make this work. Like I want love. I want a relationship, but I have to do it in this weird world forever. With these options.
And so I see it continuing because, you know, as you said, heterosexual relationships, still not perfect, still a lot of work to be done outside of music. And so as long as that's the reality, like, I think that this music is going to be irrelevant.
Well, Hazel, I have learned so much in this conversation. Thank you so much for coming on and talking with us about this. This has been a joy. Thank you for having me. That was NPR music editor Hazel Sills. Her article, While the Pop Girls Skewer Boys, Olivia Dean's Man I Need Has Hope, is on the NPR website right now.
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