Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
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Chapter 2: What is the €50 million write-off related to Iarnród Éireann's IT project?
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Good afternoon. You are very welcome to LiveLine. 51551 is the number for your text. You can reach me on email. LiveLine at rte.ie. The phone number is back up and running. 0818 715 815 if you want to give me a call. On the topic of numbers, we'll kick things off with numbers. 50, not 0818715815, but 50, 50 million euro, the write-down in Irish Rail for their failed IT system.
So this is a system, I think the minister at the time said this was going to be the brains of the rail network. It was essentially going to run traffic and control it all over the rail network in Ireland. And Irish Rail today confirming it's unlikely to be used and they've written down the 50 million euro value of the project. That's 5-0-50.
Remember when politicians and policy makers were jumping up and down a couple of years ago about the IT system and the Arts Council and there needed to be kind of root and branch reform of how this type of thing happened. That was 6 million euro. Not a small amount of money, but 50 is what we're talking about here. Now, I'm crunching the numbers before we came on air.
25 brand new rail carriages, Irish Rail could order right now. for 50 million quid from the French company they're currently ordering rail carriages from. They could buy or build 36 doll security huts. They could build 150 doll bike sheds. You could pay, the state could pay the annual salary of over 1,300 graduate nurses. That's how much money we're talking about. A massive amount of money.
It's not National Children's Hospital massive, but at the end of that, you've got a National Children's Hospital. At the end of this, you've got nothing. except a 50 million euro hole in the books. Brian McGovern is on the line. 0818 715 815, like I say. If you've got a view on this and you want to get in touch. Brian, were you surprised when you heard this?
I mean, it just shows the amount of waste that you mentioned about the children's hospital, bike sheds and everything else. You know, it's just, it's shambolic really, you know what I mean?
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Chapter 3: How did the public react to the news of the IT project failure?
Another bike shed per, what do you call it? Was it the hospital in Tralee?
Was it 127,000 or something like that? I think it might have been Cork, was it, off the top of my head? Or maybe it was Tralee. Somewhere in Munster. I think it was Tralee. Yeah. Yeah, somewhere down that part of the country, yeah. So you're not entirely surprised that this has happened?
No. Because it just seems to be the normal thing with money being wasted. You know what I mean? It's crazy. You know, when you think of
you know, when you think about how things have gone, you know, and the way things are at the moment, and people struggling with the cost of living and being taxed to their health, you know, and that's, it's crazy, you know, and that's, it's not good, it's not good, you know, and, I mean, as somebody said the other day, I think there was a, you know, talking about tax, I think I heard the thing the other day that there was a couple of local authorities, I think Mead and Loud County Council have passed motions to call the government to
about the CUSC. You know, and that's something, that's the thing I read the other day there. You know, and that's something that could put money back in people's pockets.
Yeah. I mean, yeah, the budget negotiations, I suspect, are already ongoing. within government, the government departments, and they'll talk about, you know, hard decisions having to be made. I mean, there's people who won't get what they think they deserve or what they want. This is really going to kind of stick in their craw, isn't it? That 50 million quid can just be written off.
Absolutely. Crazy.
Are you a real user, Brian?
I'm not, unfortunately. I live in Navern and we don't have that option, unfortunately. I mean, I'm in a position where I get a... I'm commuting to Dublin by bus And that, as I was saying to you earlier, we were talking about the NX and other things. I remember one morning last, you know, last September, October, I was going from Navan. Now, I got a bus at twenty past seven.
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Chapter 4: What comparisons are made between public and private sector accountability?
And that's what it is. Like, I mean, as has been mentioned, you're talking at least a four-hour commute daily. You know, and that's crazy. You put that 20 hours a week.
56 minutes, it says, it should take you to get from Navan to Dublin City Centre. And it took you, what, two and a half hours?
Yeah, exactly. You know, and a lot of the hold-up was between Sonny and Blanchardstown. You know, that one school, the colleges are back and everything, you know. A lot of people in cars as well. Single occupancy vehicles.
Yeah. You know that. Navan is due to get a rail line, I think.
Isn't that part of the plan? That's the plan. I think it's due to start operating in 2036 or 2035 anyway. Another 10 years away, so to speak.
Yeah.
So it's in the public consultation stage now.
I mean, a cynic might say that's the plan. I mean, the plan was to have a brand spanking new IT system up and running and that plan has gone up in smoke today.
Yeah. Well, the Denarvon airline was supposed to be in place by 2016. But then there was a session hit and that was shelved. You know, I think I remember Leo Bradca at the time shelved the project. I think he was Minister for Transport at the time. You know, and that's what happened there.
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Chapter 5: What are the consequences of mismanagement in public projects?
And I assume as well, sorry, it strikes me now, I assume they still need an IT system. I assume they have to go out and buy another one and that'll be another 50 million odd quid.
Yeah, well, hopefully one of them will work. But the fact that it's gone to the public consultation stage, you know, I don't recall that happening before. So I think that's, that could be an indicator that may happen. You know what I mean? And it's in the programme for government. You know, and that's what Brian was saying yesterday.
Yeah. Brian, stay with us, because Dennis Leonard is on the line as well. Dennis, what was your reaction when you heard of this 50 million euro write-down?
Well, to be totally and completely honest with you, Ciarán, I'm absolutely appalled, but not surprised. Because this is Irish way we're dealing with. It's the same Irish rail that refused to open our local station here in Caluchan for the last 22 years, where the train stops eight times a day on the Sligo-Dublin line.
It refused to open the Mullingar to Edlone line, which actually would cut journeys from Dublin to Galway by about 30, 40 minutes and actually give a straight run across the country. It's the same Irish rail that actually promised a metro so many years ago and has spent 200 million on actual consultants' reports. And that would open 20 times our station, which would cost 10 million to reopen.
It closed in 1963. We have a town of Kinnagad going to 4,000 beside it. Caloocan on the other side going to 2,000. That's 6,000. And I'm delighted for Brian and everyone and me that they're looking at the Navan line long overdue. but they're opening because Dunchalkin has 6,000, the same population as us, Kilmesson has 900, and then Navan, of course, has a large population.
There's no problem doing that. They had no problem as well announcing for the Ryder Cup, they're going to put 5 million between the report and actually a station for a week. for the Ryder Cup in Adair in County Limerick. So this is what we're dealing with. And we could have our station open 24 years ago for two and a half million. We had the consultant's reports done.
We had all the US reports done. We had plans done. It was ready to go. Six different CEOs of Irish Rail have refused it. Now, what they did then, Ciarán, a couple of years ago, they did a survey. about how this station might actually run.
And they ran it along the bus route and decided to put in three stations on the route between Mullingar and Enfield, when all we asked for was a report, a consultant's report, which our council and the council in Westmeath were willing to actually fund, and they actually refused to do it.
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Chapter 6: How does the failure of this IT project reflect on government spending?
I think they shipped half it off to China. There was three times as amount of rail in this country. I can't be contradicted on that. In 1901, 1911, there was three times the amount of track. So now they want to waste 50 million on an IT system, which is not fit for purpose. when it could open our station five times over, and I'm sure other stations in similar positions to us.
So our option here is a two-hour commute to Dublin on the M4. I'm sure you've heard about it many times on your morning traffic reports. Or a two-hour bus journey from Caloocan through Longwood, whatever. The train would take one hour. And stop seven times a day, but they won't let anyone on or off.
What has been the rationale for not reopening? I know, because I don't know the specifics of your station, Dennis, but I know in other contexts, what Irish Rail talk about often are, you know, low projected passenger numbers and infrastructure upgrade costs and value for money. Like what's the feedback been?
Well, in 2007, Toose, which was at Lone IT at the time, a university professor there did a four-month study at the time at the behest of two councils and showed 232 people would use it on a daily basis and 240 on a kind of biweekly, whatever else. That was in 2007. The population has ballooned. Kinnagad and Caloocan are two of the fastest growing areas in the country.
Our town went up six times, Caloocan went up three times in that time. And yes, the population projections were there. But like I said, when they did their own study so many years later, they insist on doing one like an ellipse from Mullingar up to... We basically have 16,000 people. that live within six miles of the station, 16,000 people, most of which commute to Dublin.
You're probably aware of the amount of migration to the Midlands over many, many years. People move down there for work.
But Dennis, Dennis, Dennis, we don't do forward planning. You know that now, surely?
No, no. Well, look, planning 24 years ago would have been nice maybe in 10 years' time. You know what I mean? The reports were there. Like I said, the QS studies were there. The drawings were there. They agreed in principle. The head of Irish Rail, the Sligo Dublin Line, came down to us at the time in Caloocan. He said, it's not a case of if Caloocan Station will open, but when.
And that was in 2003. And since then, there's been numerous campaigns, same with the Mullingar to Lone Line. And our problem in Westmead is all these great projects are going on around the country, not one of them in Westmead. Irish Rail have two stations in Westmead, a county of 100,000 people, one below and at Lone, one in Mullingar. So anyone else has to drive 15 miles to get on a train.
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Chapter 7: What alternative uses could the €50 million have been spent on?
When they could just go over the road... There's 100 car parking spaces in Caloocan. It could be opened, at the moment, the last cost, it was Irish Rail Zone cost, was about 10 million. But when we first started doing this, it was two and a half million. And funny about the Navan line, the cost of that, you probably know, is 700 million. Now they're saying two to three.
And the biggest thing, one more point here, is that they're talking about the metro. And when they're asked what the cost is, you probably heard this, somewhere between $9.5 and $23.5 billion. Now, how in the world do you have a parameter that big, number one? And number two, how can the people in Spain build the same rail line for one-eighth the price?
You said you're a local councillor. You're used to this maybe to a degree, more used to it than others would be. You know, public projects and the spending of public money and oversight of same as an elected official. Why are things so expensive here?
Well, they give all kinds of stories about wage costs and infrastructure costs and planning. We spend an awful lot of money on consultants. And the other thing is accountability. And I think this is huge.
We have asked in our council, we're just one council, for the last two and a half years, for NTA and Irish Rail and Bus Air to come in to us and look at the public transport deficits in our county. They have refused each time, put it off, we're getting a new CEO, we're getting this, we're getting that. Irish Rail did come in two years ago over the report that they did themselves.
But basically, that report, they sat on it for six months after it was finished. So I just think there's a huge wastage of money within that organization and in the public parts in general, which would build a practice. And we in rural Ireland, like I know people in Dublin have metros and buses and everything else, you know, and darts. We in rural Ireland have no option but the car.
And during the excise debate a few weeks ago, they were saying, oh, you know, you can take this, you can take that. You can take nothing. They've cut the amount of bus services going through the county. They've never opened a second, third train station. We're the third biggest town in the county. Caloocan is the fifth. the train stations in between the two.
And for some reason, they say, oh, infrastructure. And by the way, the timetabling issue is not an issue. It stops there eight times a day anyway. It's the only double track between Mullingar and Enfield. So it has to pull in.
But I know, sorry, I know I joked about forward planning that we don't do it, but I'm reminded in all this of... a local authority employee, I heard made this remark, I won't say who or what local authority, it's not fair, they're not here, but they were asked about, you know, new housing estates and traffic management and the population increase that would come with it.
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Chapter 8: What insights do callers provide about public transport issues?
In other words, we've got to wait until everyone is there and those roads are clogged and then we will kind of start dealing with that problem. And listen, not to have a go at that person, but it spoke volumes about how... the state or state agencies or local authorities, how they approach things in this country.
Had they done what you said when you wanted it, it would have cost two and a half million quid to open that rail line. Had they built the metro when they initially started talking about it, it would have cost a fraction of the 23 billion it might ultimately cost. That could end up being a downward figure, actually, a low ball, ultimately, by the time it gets done.
Had they done Navan back in 2016 when it was initially proposed, it would have cost a fraction of what it's going to cost now.
Absolutely. And even last year's estimate, I saw 700 million thrown around on that national strategic report. Now they're saying two to three because they have to buy back the land. They tore up the track. They sold off the land for pittance. And now they have to buy it back. Now, here in Caluca, we don't have that issue because we actually have everything in place and Irish Rail owns the land.
But Mullingar's at Lone Line, actually, it's the cycle track. And they co-locate them all over Europe next to a cycle track. So there's no issue there. But you hit the nail on the head, Ciarán. It's forward planning. How in the world do you build all these estates and houses and never ask, how do people get to work? How can they get a bus or a train? How can they get a school?
How can they get a doctor? How can they get, you know, basic infrastructure they need? We're not doing that. In England, Cotclosters, they built a station there years ago. And you know what? The town grew up around us.
and now they all have a way into London or wherever else so that was forward planning you build a station you go back and look at the history of London's rail system and a lot of those lines were built literally in the middle of nowhere they just built a line out into empty fields and built stations and then zoned the areas around them for planning and towns grew up around them
Absolutely. That's forward planning. It's also sustainable planning. If you talk about climate change, one third of our emissions come from transport. And yet everyone from my area is more or less forced into a car because there's no reliable bus service or train that they can actually get.
And a station sitting there where the train stops seven or eight times a day and they won't let anyone on or off. And it's all, you know, oh, that's costing too much for what it is. So it's OK to spend 50 million on a failed IT system, but not OK to spend 10 million given emissions.
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