Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
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Good afternoon. You are very welcome to LiveLine. 51551 is the number. If you want to get in touch by text, you can send me an email. LiveLine at rte.ie. Or as always, give me a call on 0818 715 815. I would particularly like... to hear from people about housing and the government's plans to relax planning rules in rural Ireland.
It was reported in the Sunday Indo yesterday and I heard the Fianna Fáil TD, Peter Chapclear, on with David McCullough earlier and the way he put it...
many, many times in that interview, regardless of what he was asked, was, if you are from rural Ireland and if you want to live in rural Ireland and if you've got land or family land in rural Ireland and you want to raise a family in rural Ireland and send your kids to the local school in rural Ireland, you should be allowed to build in rural Ireland.
that the planning laws, as he put it, should not be a hindrance to you. They should be helping you to build that home and realise that dream. So that is where we kick things off because Theresa Fagan is on the line. Theresa, do you welcome this proposed relaxation of planning laws?
I do. I think anything that can help people build a home where they can have grown up is a good thing and it may not even be necessarily about relaxing planning laws but more so about having fair planning laws like as someone who has I live in Mayo I live in Lackin and I fought for over four years to try and build a house on my own family land.
And it wasn't even a case of that the laws were the problem. It was a case of it simply wasn't fair. Somebody else can come in and in my own situation, they can propose a development of wind turbines right in my area. And I'm not allowed to build a house because it would have too much of a negative visual impact on the amenity of the area. That's what I was told.
You know, that's what Mayo County Council told me. It's what I'm boarded Cianola told me.
So, Teresa, when you first went in, I don't know, did you go straight in for planning? Did you go for a pre-planning meeting, as some people do? No, did you think it was going to be straightforward? Or what were your perceptions of all this?
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Chapter 2: What are the proposed changes to housing planning laws in rural areas?
I personally, because I grew up in rural Ireland, I'm not sure I would know how to raise a family in rural a more urban setting. They go to a rural school, we're involved in the community, I'm personally involved in several different projects in the area and I just, the life that it gives to children I think is second to none. And planning in Ireland, it doesn't value that.
Did you manage to build in the end, Theresa? Sorry.
Yes. So our initial planning went in in 2017. We were refused by Mayo County Council and subsequently refused by and board Planola. So we moved further down the field. We broke up the silage field on my brother. But we eventually did get planning in 2021. Unfortunately for us, because it took so long, my dad wasn't around to see us get into it. It just, the toll of trying to just build a home.
And it wasn't, like, it's not a massive building. It's a four-bed bungalow. And we would have worked with the council for whatever design they wanted. which is what we ended up doing. We simply got a house that would get planning.
But an awful lot of that, you know, it came down to the pressure being put on to let me build in my area, on my family land, beside my parents, beside my brother, beside my cousin. I wasn't building out in the middle of it, you know, completely off on my own. I'm building right beside family. Yeah. And...
you know, to be told that a house is too much of a negative visual impact, but developments that the national strategy are pushing are all well and good.
Tell me a little bit about the stress then of those few years of being in and out of the planning office and trying to get this sorted.
Well, like, our engineer, the engineer that finally got us the plan, and if it wasn't for him you know, constantly pushing it. And everything costs money as well. And it's time. And, you know, we got married in 17. And then, you know, we had our first child in December of 18. And we had no home, you know, at the time. We were renting in Belenat at the time.
And we didn't know what we were, we didn't know what to do. And then a house, you know, we ended up having to buy because we needed a home for our baby at the time. And because it just took so long. And then, see, it was always my dream to build here. Like when I was seven years old, I told my parents, that's where I'm building my house. And if anyone mentioned, can we have the field supply?
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Chapter 3: How do personal experiences shape views on planning regulations?
Like, the view... I have an exceptional view. And... Yeah, so I grew up beside the sea and when you grow up in an area like this, there's a love that doesn't leave you for most people and it just never left me and this was always going to be my home and then to have to fight for it.
Not because I wanted to build something that was out of character with the area, but because national policy does not value rural Ireland. It doesn't value the people in rural Ireland. It doesn't value the homes. It's like living in rural Ireland is rough. And everything from a national level that they do, you always feel that somehow you're wrong to want to live here and to live here.
There's no... You don't hear the benefits of it. And there is so many benefits.
And
they always bring it back to climate and, you know, how such a negative impact that living in rural... You know, if we were all in little urban centres and all in towns, but, like, that has its own problems as well, like between schools and community areas and everything else. And it's like they're constantly putting the horse before the cart.
We get everybody living in the towns and then we force our own problems. Whereas if you... look at the benefits of rural Ireland. Like, no one seems to appreciate it.
And you can see it from living in the area where national policy is pushing the wind energy and they, you know, on board Planola will come out after they approved Planora and said that the landscape can absorb the industrial turbines. It can't. And there's just... Living in rural Ireland is not a bad thing.
Yeah. Theresa, you stay with us. 0818 715 815. If anybody listening... whether in agreement or not with Teresa wants to get in touch or send me a text on 51551 on these proposals to relax planning laws to allow people like Teresa to more easily build on family land in rural Ireland. Sean Byrne is on the line.
Sean, can you understand why people like Teresa want to be able to build on their family land?
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Chapter 4: What arguments are made for and against relaxing planning laws?
But why... Why is it wrong that I want to live in rural Ireland? There's so many costs to absolutely everything. I pay a fee when I want to open up the site here to build a house. I pay extra costs in order to make sure that my home is in line with all the regulations and everything else.
I have to involve myself in the community to make sure that my local national school stays open and stays vibrant and in the local community garden, you know, for all the people that live in the area and to make the area a better thing. It's not just the case of housing. You are closing down communities when you start saying... no more buildings. Families cannot live in their home spaces.
0818715815 and lots of people, that's the phone number, lots of people are getting in touch and other people getting in touch by text and 51551. David is on the line. David, do you think we should, well when I say we, I mean the government should relax rules around planning in rural areas?
Absolutely not, no. I recently moved into County Wicklow I'm in an area of outstanding natural beauty. I can see Mount Leinster. I can see Sleaveby Mountain from my window. And the farmer who I bought the house off about two years ago, he has since put in planning to build six houses. And I objected because it's going to ruin my view. I left Dublin City. to have a life in the countryside.
It's one of the best meals that I've ever done. And I, you know, I just, like, if the planning rules get relaxed, what to say? We can have a, you know, they could build a block of apartments in front of me, you know?
So moving to a rural area is okay for you, but nobody else?
No, I'm not saying that. It's, you know... For me, it's going to ruin my view. This is the whole reason why I moved to rural Ireland, to have a very peaceful, quiet life. The view is spectacular. You can see right over to Mount Leinster. You can see beyond Mount Leinster. It's spectacular. I fell in love when I seen this house. I'm going to be horrified if the plan of permission goes ahead.
What about the person who lives in Dublin and stood in the field next year and fell in love just as much as you did? To hell with them.
What do you mean? Well... But there's no houses built.
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Chapter 5: How does rural depopulation affect local communities?
I'm saying my view matters to me because it's good for my mental health. It's good for relaxing after work, after a particularly tough day in work. And it's outstanding natural beauty in County Wicklow that it will be destroyed. We have the current planning applications. They're effective enough. It doesn't need to be relaxed.
Let me bring, sorry, Teresa, because there's so many people getting in touch. I want to bring Pat in because Pat's been waiting and listening to this as well. 0818715815. Pat, can you see where David is coming from?
Absolutely not, Ciarán. And I mean, I agree with everything. Well, OK, so this guy comes down from Dublin and he says he's a lot of money. Fair play to him if he comes down from Dublin and buys a nice house. So there's a local farmer's daughter or son then who's from the area, born and bred, wants to build a house, maybe wants to live beside mammy and daddy as they get older and maybe...
have somebody to mind their children because who can afford childcare costs? And this guy from Dublin, this entitled guy from Dublin, decides that, no, my view of Mount Leinster is way more important than some local person being able to build a house who has a huge connection to the area. I mean, I imagine David's neighbours aren't too happy with him at the moment to have an attitude like that.
Well, that's the way it is, and nothing is stopping the person from doing it. If it's done right out of the way, then I see it. That's the way it is, absolutely. And you know what, David? I wouldn't actually expect any other response from somebody like you. That's the way it is. So, look at me, I've loads of money. Who cares about anyone else? I'll buy what I want, and I'll object to what I want.
I've every right to. I've every right to. And you're saying, David, that the local person born and bred doesn't have the same rights as you? They do have the right. They can apply for planning permission as they want. But you're stopping their right. David, you're stopping their right by putting in a planning objection. So therefore you're taking away their right.
I have every right to put in a planning objection. I know, but you're doing it on the same hand. David, on the same hand, the local person born and bred, who was probably born baptized, went to school there, probably got married in a local church, has probably a thousand times more rights than you to live in the area. But you're blocking them.
And I mean, that farmer that was going to put in plan of mission for six houses, that would have been probably six local people that had bought those houses. He might have been building houses, maybe smaller houses for local, say, parents to downsize. so that their children could move in, maybe, into the farmhouse and take over the run of the farm.
I mean, you obviously have no connection to countryside or to rural living, because you absolutely have no idea how it works. Well, that's the way I have... I mean, how friendly are you with your neighbours, David? I mean, do you go to mass with your neighbours? I'm very friendly.
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Chapter 6: What challenges do families face when trying to build on family land?
You live on your own and you bought a five-bedroom house? Because I can afford to. I can afford to. Well, David, you know... By your analogy, should I have not bought that house? Like, I'm entitled to buy what I want. I have every right to buy a five-bedroom house if I want to. You seem to feel that your entitlement supersedes everybody else's entitlement.
So you're a single boy... When you have money. When you have money. I tell you what... And you come down and you buy a five-bedroom house... below in Wyckoff. Fair play. I'm not telling you that. I pay my stamp duty, I pay my taxes, I go to work.
I have no issue with David, anything with you, but my issue with you is, you come down, you buy your big five bedroom house, you probably don't even have a dog, but yet you object then to a local farmer building a few houses for local people. And I presume they wouldn't be five bedroom houses either. Absolutely.
Brilliant. Well, I tell you what, Theresa, hold your fire, we're going to take a short break.
51551 the number if you want to get in touch by text or as always give me a call on 0818715815 and if you're just joining us we're talking about and discussing and debating the proposals from government to relax planning laws in rural Ireland to make it easier for people from rural areas who grew up in those areas and want to live in those areas and have land or family land to build on it Bernard is on the line Bernard do you think we should relax the planning laws?
Oh, by all means. I can only talk from my own experience here in the west of Ireland, in Connemara, where some years back I divided my farm in two due to ill health. So I have two sons and I divided the farm equally. They got their herd numbers and they started farming and my eldest son proceeded to apply for planning permission. Now, it took about four years to get planning permission
and about 30 000 euros before eventually he did get planning on the family land now my other son which is married and i have one grandchild hope to live here for many years he has been applying to godly county council for planning and every planner has a different rules and regulations to see there's no uh one rule fits all. But he applied for planning permission.
He's about £28,000, £29,000 now spent and still no planning. All the county council kept refusing him on the grounds off the roads. Even though the roads stipulate you only need about 50, 60 metres viewing on each side. He had 220 and 170 metres on the other side. They kept telling him that it still didn't meet standards.
So after being refused many times, we decided, okay, we're not getting anywhere with Galway County Council. We would appeal it to Board Planola. They came out, they looked at the site, they said there was no issues whatsoever with the roads. Didn't understand what the council was referring to, that it didn't meet standards.
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Chapter 7: How do current planning laws impact the future of rural Ireland?
I was there for 20 years. Sorry, my apologies. I came through a bad patch in the sense of, in 2010... when the changes were made to the wastewater system, the land in a lot of Leitrim is very poor, especially in my area. So it didn't meet the criteria and a lot of people were refused. A lot of people went to other counties and other towns away from my rural area.
And I'll give you an example, Ciarán, that In a period from 1986 to 2016, there was 22 houses built on the road that I was reared on. There was four of them at the school and four of them at the other end of the road, the three-mile road, where there were families built houses. And what did that do? That played a big part in stabilising the school numbers and parish numbers.
That has been taken away from us when we couldn't get planning. And it's a total disaster in many of the areas. I don't want to see the countryside flooded with one-off rural housing. But you need a core number for survival. And we have gone below that. And my own national school, where I live very close to, the principal told me there last week, they'll be losing a teacher within two years.
That needn't happen if the planning had allowed us to get a reasonable amount and number of houses to be built. You know, it's... But sorry, Sean, what was the issue with the water?
What was that?
Well, our land is very bad in Leithrim and parts of Leithrim. So you haven't very... Our land is very... with dab.
So you haven't great soakers in dab.
As Sean has just said, you sell land by the gallon, not by the acre.
We are unfortunately in a part of Leipzig that hasn't good soil. So when these changes were made in 2010, there was no plan B for areas like mine. And that is the reality.
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Chapter 8: What is the role of community in rural housing decisions?
Now, I also do feel very strongly about rural schools falling in numbers, and it is sad to see that. But you have to go back to your earlier man. The cost of providing resources for these one-offs can be astronomical. So if you take the notion of the common good, you know, the Kenny Report going back, the common good,
It makes more sense to build, you know, around towns and villages where you have the infrastructure. It makes more sense to give people grants. I mean, it saddens me. I drive to small villages. Gosh, I hope they won't mind me mentioning, but Loughill is on the way home from Limerick to Lestow.
There's a lot of dark windows now, and that does make me very, very sad that people aren't living in the villages anymore. And what you have is people driving to Limerick to shopping centres or to Leith to the shopping centres. They're not supporting the small shops, so they all close. So, you know, it's rural Ireland, but a slightly distorted view of the way it is now.
That it wants to be a bit like, you know, your mandate, that they want to be... in a big house, but freedom of movement to shop and socialise in bigger areas. And that, to me, is not sustainable. That is not taking over from family farms. I do think they should be relaxed for family members wanting to come, certainly, particularly if they're helping to run the farm.
And if they're relaxed, can I just ask something?
Can I ask something?
Yeah, go for it, David.
If the planning law are relaxed, what's to stop big apartment complexes from going in? Destroying a village or destroying an area?
Well, you would still have to get planning, David. It's not a free-for-all in the sense you can build whatever you want, where you want.
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