Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
True Story Media. Hello, it's Andrea, and we are back this week with the second half of my conversation with writer and hoax hunter Taryn Harper Wright. If you haven't listened to part one yet, please go listen to that first. Last week, we talked about how Taryn got into hoax hunting and delved into the Warrior Eli saga, which is a story that she broke.
And today we are getting into how this whole thing snowballed for her and having a broader discussion about how our online lives, both real and fake, have evolved since the 2010s. I will have updates on season seven, as well as a launch date for you very soon.
And in the meantime, if you need more Nobody Should Believe Me In Your Life, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Patreon, where you can find a ton of bonus content, including our discussion about a big digital hoax story from last year, the Kendra Licari saga. As always, thank you for listening. Now here's the rest of my conversation with Taryn Wright.
Chapter 2: What is the Warrior Eli case and why is it significant?
Hey, it's Andrea. It's come to my attention that some of you have been served programmatic ads for ICE on my show. Now, podcasters don't get a lot of control over which individual ads play and for whom on our shows, but please know that we are trying everything we can to get rid of these by tightening our filters. And if you do continue to hear them, please do let us know.
In the meantime, I want it to be known that I do not support ICE. I am the daughter of an immigrant. I stand with immigrants. Immigrants make this country great. Yeah. And in one of your interviews that I was reading, you talked about how there was a young woman that you had been following and you felt that she might be at risk of self-harm if you exposed her.
And so can you talk about sort of how you handled that situation? Yeah.
um that was right near christmas and we were looking it was definitely something i can't remember the actual details of the hoax i ended up obviously not writing about it but you know we found her like real facebook and we found a real blog that she was writing on um all of a sudden the blog as we were looking at it and i was kind of getting ready to write about it the blog turned really dark and she was talking about self-harm and um
suicidal ideation so i called the police in the city that she lived in and ended up having her committed for 72 hours or 48 hours or whatever it is um and then ended up never writing about it but again like i certainly never thought on mother's day when i like ran into this whole thing that that would be all together i had four people hospitalized for hold for psychological holds
So that's rough. I mean, like... It's a lot to carry. It's a lot to carry. And again, like, I really do measure my impact, you know? Like, I don't want to do something that's net negative, for sure.
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Chapter 3: How has online deception evolved since the 2010s?
And it turned out... I mean, it was just... Toward the end of it, the internet was definitely getting meaner. People were, I feel in a way, a little bit responsible because, like, all these... Reddit groups and stuff popped up that were like, this person has a child with cancer, but they asked for too many toys. Like they asked for puzzles and. Oh yeah. Can you, can you talk about that?
Because I think like this is, this is a really interesting piece because especially, you know, for us, because, you know, these are just issues that we constantly struggle with and, you know, we're always weighing that, that, um, you know, on balance, is this the right thing to do? And I think, you know, obviously in our case, we're talking about people with real children that are really harming.
And so that is obviously a very strong sort of moral imperative to expose it because that is, you know, especially because it can be very hard to get anyone to intervene in these situations. And so just at least having that person's name out there, provides some measure of protection and kind of eyes on the child. And that's kind of our ethos on the show.
But even with that, we're always concerned about what that exposure is going to do to the perpetrator, what effect that might have on them and the people around them and how things might just go sideways in sort of ways that we didn't
And I think one of the other things that we really worry about is just that this will put, you know, very unintentionally put scrutiny on parents who legitimately have a sick child, who are just acting weird or sort of overshare online or, you know, that kind of thing. And so, Kia, can you tell us about, like, this instance that you had where it was –
not not the kind of thing that you would expose, but but something very different.
Yeah. And of course, like, I think you're doing great work. And like, I definitely think that what you're one of the only people I can talk to in the world that has like been through some of the same like mental stuff that I have as far as like figuring out what am I doing here? Like, is this helping or hurting?
And I definitely I think that I helped, you know, like, I really do think that overall net positive.
Um, but anyway, we had all of a sudden, most of my emails that I would get, um, at the beginning, I would get just like blogs to look at that were pretty obviously fake or, you know, like that were a little, I mean, the majority of people out there can't write, you know, like it's, if somebody, I mean, like not to sound like a jerk, but like, I mean, and that's good.
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Chapter 4: What ethical dilemmas arise from exposing online hoaxes?
Totally get that. And also just that, like, you know, I think it's dark, right? Like, it's dark stuff to look into.
Yeah.
And it takes a toll when you're going into these internet spaces and – looking at this behavior and thinking about why people would do it. And, you know, and thinking about like, you know, and then when people get in touch about their experiences they had with a person like that, you know, mom that talked about leaving her dying son's bedside. I mean, that's just like a huge weight to carry.
And I think it's like, yeah, I just really relate with that feeling of like sort of opening the Pandora's box. And then you're like, wow, what
that's a hundred percent what it was. It was just like, wow, I am a hundred percent not. Um, I mean like eventually I, and I would give everyone my phone number. I would give the hoaxers my phone number. I would give the people affected my phone number. I was,
spending so much time on this that it was I mean and it was just like okay the only person that this again like and now I've been to therapy so I'm doing much better with boundaries and stuff but like at that point I'd be like the only person that this is really affecting you know like I'm sure I'm like not sleeping and like I'm doing this all the time and I'm you know like having nightmares and all this stuff but it's just I'm helping people like I'm definitely helping like I'm friends with the hoaxers like
they know that I don't think that they're bad people. Like they know that they just did a bad thing, you know, like.
And explain to me, explain to me that piece, being friends with the hoaxers, because that's actually something that I, I find relatable, but I think a lot of people would have the opposite reaction where they're like, well, why would you want to be friend, this person that did this?
And, and like this person's, you know, just, yeah, you're talking about that kind of visceral reaction that we have to people and like, understandably, right. That,
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Chapter 5: How does hoax hunting impact the mental health of those involved?
some story about them, some story that one of their family members told me of some memory of them. You know, with Sophie Hartman, you know, I ended up, I'm still friends with her. I ended up getting to know someone who'd been one of her best friends really well. And we still talk to each other all the time.
And like, there were journals included in the police reports where she talked about her personal experiences, like the way that she was experiencing it. I've been this way since I was a kid. And why do I do the things I do? And it was just this very like sort of human moment. And the one I had the most trouble with was our season six case. I couldn't find that moment.
And I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I could not find a moment with Lisa where it just felt like a – you know, nobody shared a memory of her that felt just like sort of unrelated to the stuff she was doing. It was just all part of that. It just all felt like part of the scam and that, and obviously she, she had taken it to the most extreme, you know, her son died.
And obviously that's just like a difficult thing to face. But I always think that like, if I ever stop looking for the humanity and the people I'm talking about, it's time to go.
Totally agree with you a hundred percent. I mean, that's, was kind of my way of thinking you expressed it much better than I did. I do not want to be a person that is like, you know, like, here's, look at the crazy person, you know, like, here, here's this crazy person, this person has done bad things, like, let's all shame them. Like, I didn't want it to be about shame.
I really did think it was helping them as far as like, maybe seeing their name, like, in print, seeing the other people they had affected on the other side of a keyboard. would make them kind of stop and, like, move on to their real life. Like, to me, you know, like, and toward the end of my blog, we did, I, like, hired a psychologist to do sessions with these people.
You know, I was like, hey, I can, like, refer you to the psychologist. None of them took me up on it. We offered to find, like, a psychologist to do, like, five sessions or something in their hometown, and nobody took me up on that either. Just because I was really kind of concerned with, like, okay, I don't want this to just be an experience of, like,
here's somebody's name on the internet, like I do want people to get help and like, have a good life that they're not feeling the urge to pretend that they have cancer on the internet, you know, like, and I don't want to be the type of person that's just like, I heard from so many producers and stuff like that, while I was writing my blog that wanted to do TV shows, and the vast majority of them were
all right, we're going to have you hide in the bushes. And this person comes out and you're, you're going to jump. And I was like, have you read my blog? Like jump out and say, I know that you're, you're pretending to be Amy Marshall online. And you have like the catfish, the catfish ambush. It's just like, I don't have, I'm not intimidating in any way.
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Chapter 6: What are the responsibilities of storytellers in discussing sensitive topics?
I'm so remorseful. And she went to prison for 10 years. So it was like there wasn't a question about what she'd done. And she was, oh, I'm so remorseful. And I just would do anything to get back with my family. And, you know, and so I was like, well, I know, like, you know. Mark Feldman and Mary Sander, top experts in the world. Like, if you want that help, oh, absolutely.
And, you know, I really, I'm not afraid of hard work. And do you think I ever heard from her again? Like, no, of course not. Because they don't want help. And so I think I've moved on from that feeling. But certainly, like, in terms of now, if one of them surprises me along the way,
off we go i would absolutely help seriously how wonderful would that be i mean yeah and i keep an open mind for that sometime happening and i think the more the more likely and possibly productive thing that could come of that in terms of helping the perpetrators is that if it was caught much earlier and they had not done the things that they've done i mean i think the people i cover on the show are are in as deep as you can go so i think that would be a
But I also, like, I just want to reflect to you, too, of, like, what I've seen as the real public usefulness of not treating people like monsters is that I think, you know, and as we're sort of expanding the show right now and looking at these other cases that are abuse cases that are not munchausen by proxy and that are parents that have said they've been falsely accused by doctors of abusive head trauma and broken bones and this kind of much more
scientifically straightforward cases of abuse. And I ended up having a lengthy conversation with one of them. And I think that when we make it about people being monsters, we totally flatten that
person and we're not going to recognize what abuse actually is because the reality is and especially once you sort of get out i know munchausen by proxy perpetrators are a specific breed for sure but like when you sort of widen the scope to like all people who abuse children um they're not monsters who are completely unlike the rest of us they're human beings who are committing horrible acts right
And in many cases, there's a whole bunch of things that led up to them committing that horrible act that could have been prevented along the way. And if we start putting them in these buckets of like, this person's a monster and just no matter what you did, they were going to do this horrible thing. And then this person's a good human being who would never do this horrible thing.
Then we get into these sort of biases where if somebody is, you know, and I look at these narratives about these parents that claim to be falsely accused that were just, there is no evidence they were falsely accused.
And they say these things like, well, this person, you know, they give examples of that person being a good dad or that person, you know, is the baseball coach or they're a paramedic or they're sort of this other upstanding person in this way.
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Chapter 7: How does attention serve as a currency in today's digital landscape?
Like, I think those are all understandable reactions. I just think if you're going to be a person that's engaged in telling these stories to any kind of a public audience, that's kind of where the responsibility lies in my mind. What do you, what do you think?
Oh, yeah, 100%. I mean, again, like, I just, I had to start moderating the comment section of the blog because it just got so just... And again, like, you can be angry. Like, I'm okay with people being angry. I'm okay with people calling me and telling me, you know, how hurt they are and things like that. Or even, like, writing about how hurt they are.
But when it comes down to, like, we're going to make fun of the way this person looks. Or we're going to call every job they've ever had and tell them that this happened. You know, like, we want to shame them in their community and things like that. Like, again, like, your stakes are much higher than the people who I was writing about.
Like, I will say, I really hope you're taking care of yourself because... That's a lot. Oof. Like, therapy, again, like, has helped me so much. And I did need therapy after, like, writing this blog because... Yeah, I mean, I have a great therapist. Good. I'm so happy to hear that. Because it, like you said, it can get very dark.
And it also, when I did not have any boundaries and I was just taking everything on, oof, that was a big mistake. So it... Yeah, I do agree. Like, I value, I think that to be a good person, you've got to be a good person when people aren't watching. Like, I really do believe that.
And I don't want to write something to get attention, you know, like the media attention or get my own TV show or get like a book deal and like put somebody down because of that or like... climb up the backs of like these poor people who have done a horrible thing, but like, I definitely don't want them to suffer shaming.
I mean, like there's, there's such a tendency to, for people to like, want to ruin the lives of somebody that have done something wrong. And I get like, we want to keep people safe from what they're doing. Like I would kind of agree, like maybe we don't allow them to start cancer groups or something, you know, like, but not, I never want you to be able to earn a living.
I want you to like die in a cold trailer somewhere, you know, like there's a lot of that.
Yeah. Well, and I think we've sort of been, you know, in true crime spaces where I think both of our work sort of resides, perhaps uneasily. You know, there is this sort of like narrative arc that people want, which is the law and order narrative arc. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To their own children. And, like, you know, I don't care particularly whether or not they're punished.
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Chapter 8: What are the psychological implications of Munchausen by Internet?
I mean, I think I got out of the business at the right time, honestly. I loved pouring through a 300-page blog and looking for inconsistencies. But yeah, now AI, holy mackerel. And again, it's normalized that people are lying on the internet then.
I had a I think the year that I started the blog, the catfish movie came out and like a Huffington Post writer actually came to my house for two days to watch the movie together with me to like see what I thought of the movie. I mean, that's how not. heard of it was then, you know, like it wasn't this problem that we all like knew about. Um, it was pretty new.
And, um, now, I mean, like for a while I thought, okay, everything's video, like it's going to be harder for people to fake stuff. But I had hoaxers that shaved their heads. I had hoaxers that bought medical equipment and wheelchairs online and, and snuck into an ER and, and, you know, like took pictures of themselves with like a vitals machine.
I mean, there's, there's all sorts of things people will do, um, to get attention and, because of their sickness or because of whatever. Um, I don't think it's going away. I mean, it doesn't seem to have gone away. I'm still weirdly, like, I don't read them. Like you said, like it sets me into a wormhole that I don't want to get into.
But for a while after I closed the blog, I can't even remember the year I closed it, but, um, I, I just stopped updating, but I would still do the same work. You know, like I would, I would kind of like work on hoaxes with like a group of five people and we'd sort of like deal with things internally and like email the person and be like, Hey, please stop doing this.
You know, just, it just, it got to the point with my blog that anytime I posted anything, it would be like a nightline story, which is too much pressure for me. And also like, that's a fricking like nightline would literally pick it up. Like nightline would be like, okay, could we hope you want again to like talk about this? And I'm like, how much can we talk about that?
I mean, like, again, like I know that it's a super, I shouldn't say that as I'm appearing on
podcast right now talking about it but like um it just became a lot of pressure and also I was like okay it's one thing if I'm like writing about these people and it just stays on a wordpress blog and like people pass it around facebook it's another with I write about it and it's like on gawker and stuff you know like it's crazy uh gawker like r.i.p um yeah RIP. Gosh.
Good times on Gawker for a while. I know. I miss Gawker. Me too, man.
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