The New Rules Of War Are There Are No Rules
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What is the civilian‑harm mitigation initiative that launches the conversation?
This is the On The Media Midweek Podcast. I'm Brooke Gladstone. This week at the United Nations General Assembly, President Trump told the gathering of world leaders and diplomats that he was weighing something
big. I have a big decision to make. Will a deal be made with Iran? Or do I annihilate the Islamic Republic?
Big it may be, but also fatiguing. He's been notoriously big on threats to annihilate Iran and equally big on claims that the war is almost over and or that we've already won bigly. But with less than a fifth of the regular traffic making it through the Strait of Hormuz this past weekend and gas prices soaring ahead of the midterms, the president has other real-world problems, some of which he seems to think he can skirt by keeping the news media out of the White House. More on that on this week's Big Show. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth was probably thinking the same thing when he threw the press corps out of the Pentagon. Maintaining an iron grip on the narrative during the fog of war is easier if you're the one manning the fog machine.
Meanwhile, photographers from major news agencies like Reuters, Getty and the Associated Press have been banned from briefings on the war with Iran. Apparently, the secretary's aides were unhappy with the unflattering pictures that were circulated by the photographers.
Death and destruction from the sky all day long.
Heg Seth this past March.
Our warfighters have maximum authorities granted personally by the president and yours truly. Our rules of engagement are bold, precise, and designed to unleash American power, not shackle it. unlike so many of our traditional allies who wring their hands and clutch their pearls, hemming and hawing about the use of force. America, regardless of what so-called international institutions say, is unleashing the most lethal and precise air power campaign in history, all on our terms. No stupid rules of engagement, no nation-building quagmire, no...
Trouble is, those stupid rules are enshrined in the U.S. military's ethical code, international law, and the Department of Defense's own law of war, which emphasizes restraint, responsibility, and minimizing civilian casualties. In March, after the U.S. had bombed a school in Tehran, killing 120 children, I spoke to Wes J. Bryant, an Air Force combat veteran, whose job until spring of 2025 was senior policy analyst and advisor at the Pentagon on precision warfare and civilian harm mitigation. His task was to refine a code to mitigate civilian harm. I asked him what the process was going to be before the Trump administration's Department of Defense scuttled it.
Well, yeah, I spent two decades serving in the war on terror as an enlisted ground warfighter and special operator. I've coordinated and controlled hundreds, even thousands of airstrikes and other types of fires on the battlefield.
And this is where most of the killing in the War on Terror happened, right?
Correct, through the use of air power. And what ended up being called the Civilian Harm Mitigation and Response Project, what it was called was an action plan, was a culmination of actually various administrations, Obama to the first Trump administration, to the Biden administration, directing look backs on the war on terror as the war on terror was kind of winding down, looking at incidents and trends in civilian casualties throughout the war on terror. We had some really big horrendous incidents. We also had some trends of civilian casualties. And we had a whole lot of collateral damage, a whole lot of destruction of infrastructure everywhere we were operating in the Middle East. So this was a program to say, how can we make the force better?
How can we learn from our mistakes and not repeat them in the next conflict? That's what the Civilian Harm Mitigation Response Action Plan was for. And it was largely accelerated forward. because we had a few very big, very public civilian casualty incidents in the years leading up to that.
Such as the withdrawal of U.S.
How was the Civilian Harm Mitigation and Response Action Plan designed to protect non‑combatants?
forces from Afghanistan, which was chaotic, nearly 300 killed at the airport, and many more left behind, Afghans employed by the U.S.
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Chapters
8 chapters
1
What is the civilian‑harm mitigation initiative that launches the conversation?
0:02–4:30
2
How was the Civilian Harm Mitigation and Response Action Plan designed to protect non‑combatants?
4:30–7:30
3
Which major civilian‑casualty incidents did Wes Bryant cite as proof the program was needed?
7:30–11:47
4
Why did Wes Bryant decide to blow the whistle on the Pentagon’s shutdown of the Center of Excellence?
11:47–14:58
5
What evidence links the Iranian school bombing to a targeting mistake and how could it have been avoided?
14:58–18:47
6
How does Secretary Pete Hegseth’s leadership affect compliance with international law and the rules of war?
18:47–22:43
7
What are the broader consequences of dismantling civilian‑protection efforts for U.S. military credibility and public trust?
22:43–26:40
8
What key lessons does the episode draw about the future of warfare when “there are no rules”?
26:40–29:46