In this episode of Talking Tokens, Jacquelyn Melinek speaks with Matt Luongo, Founder of Thesis and Co-Founder of Mezo, and Nathan McCauley, Co-Founder and CEO of Anchorage Digital. They discuss how Bitcoin collateral, institutional borrowing, and onchain lending are becoming core parts of modern finance.They dive into why institutions increasingly want to borrow against Bitcoin, how regulatory clarity and qualified custody make these markets possible, and why products like Mezo’s lending and staking are giving BTC holders new ways to access yield, without selling their assets. The conversation also explores the recent Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac signals around crypto collateral, how Bitcoin mortgages work today, the rise of BTCfi, and why DeFi lending has historically outperformed centralized lenders through past market blowups.They also break down volatility management, backtesting, risk frameworks, why conservative collateral ratios matter, and how Bitcoin’s “forever asset” narrative changes long-term financial behavior for both institutions and individuals.Timestamps(00:00) – Why Bitcoin is becoming a long-term collateral asset (01:27) – Institutions prefer Bitcoin, altcoins lack institutional traction (02:21) – Why institutions borrow against BTC and rely on qualified custody (03:34) – Fannie and Freddie exploring crypto for mortgage eligibility (05:19) – Bitcoin mortgages today with second homes, investment properties, and growing demand (06:36) – How Mezo helps users borrow using BTC and why guidance matters (07:26) – BTCfi is emerging: borrow, earn, or stake Bitcoin onchain (09:06) – Treasury companies, native yield and why lending is Bitcoin’s true yield mechanism (10:59) – Transparent, onchain lending vs black-box centralized lenders (12:00) – Managing volatility, collateral ratios and conservative risk design (15:26) – Bitcoin staking: short lockups, capital efficiency and borrowing against staked BTC (19:03) – Why DeFi lending has outperformed centralized platforms across cycles (22:04) – Bitcoin eating the “monetary premium” of gold and real estate (32:25) – What success looks like: BTC finance becoming “just finance” (37:04) – What they’re watching next: treasury companies, UX leapfrogging, AI and machine economies EssentialsYou can subscribe to the podcast on Spotify, Apple or YouTube. If you like the show, please let us know by leaving a review!Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0LOgWxIQ0NnNUD5eXsSuoZ Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talking-tokens/id1743669141Follow us on X Jacquelyn: https://twitter.com/jacqmelinek Talking Tokens: https://twitter.com/_TalkingTokensFollow us on Instagram Talking Tokens: https://www.instagram.com/_talkingtokens/Note that this podcast is for informational purposes only and any views shared by anyone on the show are opinions, not financial advice. The host or guests may have a direct or indirect financial interest in content mentioned in this episode.

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“What did the council decide on item 42?” — answered with the speaker and the moment.