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Chapter 1: Why is Leo Cullen leaving Leinster Rugby?
Hello and welcome to the Counter-Rug Rugby Podcast brought to you by the Irish Times in partnership with Oak Energy. We had today planned to do a deep dive into how Leinster won their final on Friday, tactics, analysis, data, all that. But then Neil Cullen decided to announce he's stepping down in 12 months' time. So... As happens in this industry, the news of the day has taken over.
Gerry Thornley was supposed to be on a day off getting ready to go to Australia later this week, but duty calls and he's here to discuss the big news that Leinster will have a new head coach roughly this time next year. So here's Gerry. Jerry Thorny, hello. You were set for Australia. I believe you were set for a bit of rest and recuperation.
Chapter 2: What factors influenced Leo Cullen's decision to step down?
And lo and behold, on the day that Keir Starmer leaves as Prime Minister of the UK, Leo Cullen has decided to announce he also will be departing. It's a strange one. He's not actually leaving. He's announced that he'll be honouring his contract is essentially the news today, correct? Yes.
what do we make of this is this usual to be given a 12 month notice period I mean Joe Schmidt's long goodbye didn't go very well for Irish rugby well I think first thing you'd say is he's going out on his own terms isn't he he's not being pushed or shunted in any way shape or form he's entirely going of his own free will and his own volition and he's choosing halfway through a two year contract so that gives the RFU and Leinster a full year to identify and find a replacement for him so I think
he's also leaving at the same time as Jack Nienabar is almost certainly leaving as well when his four-year tenure comes to an end as head coach. I think, I'm not sure about the other, but I think most of the coaching ticket is expiring at the end of next season.
So the timing is to coincide with Nienabar leaving and that means whoever comes in as the next head coach will have some scope to appoint their own right-hand man as of where, which I think is important as well. My understanding is that it had nothing to do with last Friday's and he had decided this before last Friday's URC final against the Bulls, which lends to one that this was the right time.
I mean, it'll be 12 years and that's long enough, really, isn't it? That's a good stint. And I'd say it's taken its toll on him. It's a very, very, very, very demanding job. And there was evidence of that in a few broadsides at the media in recent weeks and so forth that perhaps
pressures and demands of the job which we can get into are extraordinary and after 12 years it's taken us toll on them he thinks we will have had enough I think also he wants to stay on for one more season he wants to be part of the lengths to moving back into the RDS or the lay arena we're going to be going into
Do you get the sense that that's the primary factor here? Is that it is just a time thing? There's no sense that Leinster are looking for something new or anything?
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Chapter 3: How does the timing of Cullen's departure affect Leinster's future?
It's more so that he's just... No, and that's very much the way Leinster operate, really. I mean, it's been now 11 seasons since they removed Matt O'Connor, which was... You know, they also did it with Gariella, but they tend not to remove their coaches. Irish rugby tends not to remove their coaches.
The head coaches of all the four provinces are, strictly speaking, employees of the IRFU, first and foremost. So David Lucifer in the past and David Humphries now would have the primary say in these matters and who would be the head coaches. Humphries would have had a big role to play in the appointment of Lancaster, Connacht and Clayton McMillan at Ulster and Richie Murphy at Ulster.
Now he's got another...
provincial appointment on his desk and I would imagine he would have a big say in that too you know because it will be whereas it will be in conjunction with Leinster but I don't get the impression whatsoever that David Humphries was putting any pressure on Leo Cullen to leave the job you've got to remember as well I know people like yourself think that Leinster should be judged purely and solely on winning Champions Cups
and therefore losing five finals is a lamentable failure. But in actual fact, their primary job is to beat both suppliers to the Irish rugby team, which they do in abundance. They have 23 players in the 6th and 8th squad. They have 18 players in the initial squad for the 4th and 8th national championship, on top of which they supplied 14 players for the Lions.
So in actual fact, to get to two finals in the midst of all that is quite an achievement.
To what extent is... It's probably a question not to ask now because he's still there. He's going to get another 12 months, but...
to what extent maybe because legacy is an interesting word because like you said there's I think generally Leo Collins legacy is an immensely positive one both as a player as a coach even if you even if you just boil it down to silverware yes there's the five finals lost but he's won a lot of trophies well there's four four you were four pro 12s pro 14s in a row before the most recent two I think whatever you call it he's also he's
He was 60 coaching and won at least two or three as a player. Three as a player of Champions Cups and one as a head coach and became the first man ever to both be captain and coach of Champions Cup winning teams. Yeah, his legacy is significant. Yeah. And I think he'd be judging much more than that as well. You're right. It's going to be very interesting to see. Now is not the time.
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Chapter 4: Who are the potential candidates to replace Leo Cullen?
That to me means that the argy-bargy with the press is somewhat understandable.
And despite winning that and going out on a positive note, to me, it seems positive that he gets another year because not that it would have left a sour taste, but if he'd gone out after a couple of broadsides at the media and his regime had disbanded with their legacy, not like being the Champions Cup final defeat, but for a lot of people, that would be their strongest memory.
The bitter edge that there's been around this team and narrative that's been around this team in recent weeks. The extra year means that there's a better chance of him going off on a more positive note, I think.
Maybe so, maybe not. Definitely two ways you could look at that, Nathan. And that is, as you've outlined there, or alternatively, he could have gone out with the trophy celebration last Friday night and called a park in front of 40,000 fans and saying goodbye to James Lowe and Luke McGrath and Jerry Kerr. And it would have been a nice way to go, too. I'm not so sure.
I think Bilbao was definitely a blot. It was their worst performance of the nine finals they've reached, for sure. The game was done and dusted by halftime. We were both there with extraordinary heat, extraordinary for them to warm up for six or seven minutes longer than everybody else, extraordinary to see them score a try after 20 phases and then almost die a death in the first half.
I mean, Noel McNamara, we met him in the airport the next day and he said the real field temperature was actually 40 degrees because virtually, as you know, an enclosed stadium. Look, whatever all the mitigating factors about that, the point I'm coming to, Nathan, is this. If you think about it,
Leinster beat Edinburgh, lower reaches of the URC, who are not going to qualify for the Champions Cup next season. Then they beat Sale. Sale finished 8th or 9th in the Premiership, well down the table. But if it was a proper qualifying procedure from the Premiership, they wouldn't even be in the Champions Cup next season. And then they beat Toulon, just Toulon finished 11th in the top 14.
And all those ties were at home. It's hard to think that they would have beaten Bordeaux-Vegla and or Toulouse or faced either of them before the final. Who knows? But just when you tally that with the final defeat, I don't know. I came away from the vow thinking, this is the French. Fifth year in a row, the French have won the tournament.
It's an era of unprecedented French top couture dominance. They have almighty muscle and firepower, even though they do have a slog of the league. And it seemed to me as if
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Chapter 5: What is Leo Cullen's legacy at Leinster Rugby?
Go on then.
I would like to say kind of a congratulation during your effective period on Leo Cullen, what he's done for Leinster Rugby. His legacy, as you say, is enormous. And I think that should be acknowledged. But there's no doubt that there's going to be a long, long succession stakes now because...
We've got a year and the RFU and Leinster will be grateful for the year, but they won't necessarily be in a mad rush. Yes, Noel McNamara will have to be one of those. Interestingly, I think he's still under contract. I presume there will be a get out clause for him if he was offered the Leinster head coaching role. He has worked in the Leinster pathway. He has been an underage coach in Leinster.
He has overseen the Leinster Academy. He's carved an incredible CV with the Sharks and laterally Bordeaux Begley. He's a great inside knowledge of Bordeaux Begley. He's an incredibly intelligent, smartly intelligent man. It would be interesting as well to have somebody come in from French rugby. A little bit of a different outlook on particularly attack.
Nina Barth brought a very different outlook on defence. So it might be interesting to see how somebody would bring in a different kind of attack. Because everybody pretty much plays the same way in Irish rugby. In attack, they all copy Andy Farron's Ireland to a large extent. And it would be interesting to see somebody who's been coaching a team in France with significant X-factor.
It would have been very interesting, for example, to see if Mikey Prendergast had ever become head coach at Munster and what he would have brought to that. So no matter tomorrow, it has to be a contender. Obviously, other names that will be mentioned will be Stuart Lancaster and Roman O'Gara. They're both out of contract at the end of next season.
Lancaster would certainly be a very popular choice amongst the Leinster fan base should you ever go back I don't know how happy is Ian Galway I hope happy he's doing a great job and Connacht would be good to see him stay there I don't know it might be that he would come back although they say you never go back Another one would be Raj.
He has a somewhat different history with Leinster compared to Noel McNamara and Stuart Lancaster, purely as a foe. First with Munster and then with La Rochelle beating him in two finals. I'd say he's irked a few people in Leinster along the way, but it was certainly a very courageous call by both him and Leinster, stroke the RFU, where he did become the next Leinster head coach.
I remember in all of this O'Gara and Lancaster and that would probably fancy their chances of being Irish coach one day and the best stepping stone to being the next Ireland coach after Eddie Farrell is probably to become the next Leinster coach.
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Chapter 6: How can the new head coach impact Leinster's performance?
I haven't thought of him. Yeah, out of contract as well, is he? At the end of the World Cup or at the end of next season? End of World Cup. World Cup. Yeah, here's an interesting one for you. Like, supposing they do go down that route and they go and say a Philippe Contopomi, but he wouldn't be able to come into the World Cup.
That leaves a little bit of a niatus until November in that 2027-28 season. I wouldn't rule out Leo Cullen being asked to stay on for a couple of months if that was the case, if they went for a World Cup coach, so as to ensure a smooth transition and changeover.
I suppose the other thing as well, if there's something we probably learned from the Munster experiment, whoever is the main guy probably needs to bring in his own backroom. We don't know what the exact dynamics were between Clayton McMillan and the backroom he inherited, but within a year, one of them obviously decided to move on in Mike Prendergast.
And look, I'm not saying there was a falling out or anything like that, but just generally speaking, as a rule of thumb, whoever is in charge needs his own people in there, presumably.
Yeah, that's why I said that at the start of this discussion, Nathan, that Leo announcing he intends stepping down, basically simultaneously as with Jack Nineveh, allows this new head coach to bring in a right-hand man that they trust and, you know, has a relationship with in the past or has appointed at least, whereas...
Mikey Prendergast had undoubtedly had designs on being the Munster head coach one day. I think looking back on reflection, it was a big mistake by Munster not to give him interim charge after Gray and Rantree left his position. I think that would have made sense rather than bringing him into the hospital. They should have given the job to Mikey Prendergast there and then.
And then having overlooked him for that, to then overlook him by bringing in Clayton McMillan, it meant that McMillan and Prendergast was very much a contrived marriage and contrived marriages don't work with coaching titans.
Finally, because we haven't spoken since Friday, what was your assessment of Friday night very quickly? I mean, I spoke to Gordon Darcy after the game and he was leaning a little bit more. Bulls didn't get off the plane, not necessarily. But what did you make of that in terms of that Lenski performance versus the maybe the disappointments that we saw?
Well, that seems to be usually the case. I seem to be in a minority of one or two or three. I'm quite positive about the length of performance at times. Nobody else ever is. If they ever lose badly, they're awful. If they ever win badly, it's down to the opposition and how poor the Bulls were.
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Chapter 7: What challenges does Leinster face in the upcoming season?
And I was particularly delighted to see Sam Berhindergast play so well. I mean, tackle well, make that brilliant sliding, covering defensive block. My favourite moment of the match was when
Gibson Park was fainting to fake a box cake from inside the 22 from the Hill 16 end of the ground and obviously they'd done their prep and their homework and particularly on Kane and Moody's defensive positioning at outside center which he may be a good attacker but he's not a brilliant 13 outside center defender and uh He was sweeping behind Brendegast, called for the ball.
Gibson Park turned his body past, skipped past Jamie Osborne in midfield. He pulled it back in for Sam Brendegast. And he just weighed up his options and played what he saw in front of him that moment on. Accelerated through a gap and hit the most gorgeous 50-22 rubber. 50-22 on the run.
Chapter 8: What are the implications of Cullen's departure for Irish rugby?
I just thought that and some of his passing, I just thought were great to see. It was really good to see him back because he's probably going to be the Irish starting 10 now against the Wallabies in the All-Back system.
That's it for today. My thanks to Jerry for his time. As always, this episode was produced by John Casey. Counter Rock is brought to you by the Irish Times in partnership with Oak Energy. And we'll be back in your feed later this week.