The Dr. John Delony Show
Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)
Mon, 23 Dec 2024
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Chapter 1: What does it mean that grief has no timeline?
There is no timeline in grief. If you are, it's a week ago, it's a month ago, and you're sitting there witnessing. You're four years in, aren't getting out of the house, or you're not getting back in relationships. I'm going to be a little tougher coach.
There you go. Yeah. What's up? What's going on? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show. I'm so glad you're with us. We're talking about your emotional and mental health, your relationships, whatever you got going on in your life. I'm gonna sit here, I'm gonna sit with you, and we're gonna figure out what's the next right move.
On today's episode, we have a second part of one of my favorite conversations I've ever had with one of my heroes, the great David Kessler. David Kessler is a world-renowned expert on grief, and nobody likes to talk about grief, but grief impacts every single person living and breathing right now, including you and including me.
And we have to grieve the big things, the small things, and we have a grief-illiterate world, as he says. And so in this part two, we're talking about grief demanding a witness, something that I've been saying forever and ever, and I got the line from him, and so much more.
So I've got his book here, by the way, The Sixth Stage of Grief Workbook for anyone who's struggling, and we'll link to it in the show notes. So check out the second part of my conversation with the great David Kessler right here. The most powerful line you've given me is grief demands a witness.
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Chapter 2: Why is storytelling important in grief?
Grief demands a witness.
Every civilization, every faith community in all of human history have had a moment where people sit down and say, tell me your story. And so often, like, I lost my husband, lost my, stop, what was his name? Like, we're going to tell the story. There's something so powerful. Let me ask you this. You manage these amazing global online grief communities. I have...
made the case, and tell me if I'm wrong, that in many ways, storytelling, being with, if you will, digitally is like Twinkies. It's calories, but it's not rich food. Have you noticed a difference between in-person and online?
I started there.
Okay.
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Chapter 3: How do online grief communities compare to in-person ones?
I mean, listen.
I love being wrong, so tell me if I'm wrong.
When the pandemic hit, people were like, you got to move online. And I was like, I don't know that emotions translate. And one of my buddies said, have you ever seen a movie? Oh, gosh, yes. Oh, all right, yeah. Now, here's the thing. On a Zoom call, I see your face just like this. I mean, I wish I could tell you. I mean, look, if you came in and you... smelled bad, I wouldn't know it on a Zoom.
But every other thing, I get every little expression. And here's the thing, you know, people go, when they hear there's a grief group, they go, oh, I don't want to be online with six people. I'm like, no, no, there's hundreds. There's hundreds. And the shocking thing about it is there's some people who are like, hey, I got a question. I went,
You've asked a question yesterday, like, let's have, you know. But there's other people who are in the back, have never turned their Zoom on. They've never, you know, you can be anonymous or you can be in the front row. And one of the things that's shocking about it is I do topics, we do check-ins, and I do one-on-ones.
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Chapter 4: What should you do if you're struggling with grief?
And in the one-on-ones, it's me and that person, and hundreds of people are watching it. They don't get seen in that moment. We find each other in each other's stories. That's it. And we find our healing in each other's stories.
I mean, I get tons of emails of people who go, oh my gosh, that person asked the question I didn't even know was the question I had that was the one I needed for my healing. Yeah. I would have never even thought to ask that. And they did. And you went there. And you healed them. And I go, I didn't heal them. They healed them. And you found your healing in them. And then in yourself.
So I think it does work. It does work. Excellent. I think it does work.
All right. Well, thank you for changing my mind on that.
And I am never going to like be face-to-face with people in Australia and New Zealand and the UK and, you know, all over the US. And it's like such, and boy, let me tell you, when there's like, sometimes I'll do these free online events. We have 40,000 people.
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Chapter 5: Why do children need to learn about grief early?
Right, right.
You talk about how universal grief is, that like I speak the same language. Wait, you're in rural Alaska? You haven't seen another person in weeks? And yet we're connected. You hurt too.
Yeah, I guess, man, listening to you talk about that makes me think, I am in charge of food distribution after a huge traumatic weather event. And I hold back the food because it's not... You know, Michelin star quality. People are hungry. Let's get food.
Let's get food.
Yeah. And let's not negotiate calories right now.
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Chapter 6: What role do markers and ceremonies play in processing grief?
Look, I tell people, like, if there's an amazing grief group down the block at your church, you don't need us. Right. And I'll tell you, grief is overwhelming and exhausting. Yes. That it's like, people are like, oh no, I need the church group, I need your group, and I need my counselor, and I need my clergy. Like, and it's still barely enough to hold me together, you know?
The answer should be yes, yeah. Especially in our world where we have, we're so lonely, right? And we don't have... regular groups of people in our lives just as a way of being to help.
And people in those groups, the first question I ask, you come on, you start to talk, and I go, how long has your loved one been dead? And I tell the group, and here's why I'm asking, there is no timeline in grief. Right. But if you are, it's a week ago, it's a month ago, I'm sitting there witnessing being there sitting with you in compassion.
You're four years in and you aren't getting out of the house or you're not getting back in relationships or you're not living life. I'm going to be a little tougher coach.
There you go. Yeah.
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Chapter 7: How can we teach kids about loss?
Yeah.
I often tell folks who just experienced loss, you probably will not remember this conversation. I want you to remember. You exhaled once, right? And I want you to remember that. Right. You're not going to remember the exact. In fact, they used to tell us, bring a brochure or something because no one's going to remember. They can.
That's okay.
What do you tell the person who is sitting not so much in the lost moment yet, but it's not fair moment?
Luckily, I had so many teachers to draw on. You know, um... I'm a reserve specialist with my local police department. I ran a group for police officers whose children died by suicide with the officer's gun. Wait, wait. You're protecting our world? You're showing up in a dangerous world? And your child died? Ooh, that doesn't make cosmic sense to me. Right.
It's extra not right.
It's extra not right. You know, there's so many situations like that that I would sit with people. I remember there was a couple that came to a retreat, and I think I even wrote about them in there, whose two-year-old daughter went out with grandma in New York and And they're sitting on a bench and a random brick falls and kills the child. I'm sorry, what? What? What? Like a random brick?
And here's the thing about this. I worked with her on her anger. And I remember she kept saying, I can't say it. I can't say it. And we're in a room with hundreds of people. And I said, what if you just said it? What if we understood it and you said it? And she goes, I hate old people. And I go, okay, good. Let's release the shame of that. And there were some...
people who were a little older in the room. And I said, I wonder, could you like really scream this out or hit the pillow or whatever? Could you release this anger? And she goes, I can't. And I said, we're going to do it with you. And I had the room going, we hate old people. And like to hear it, it would have sounded crazy. Right, right. And then... She fell down in tears as she released it.
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