Jon Favreau on Where the Democrats Went Right
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The ongoing government shutdown. Is the first real strategic test of Democrats in Trump's second term. It is the first time when they have overcome enough of their internal divisions to choose a fight. choose a message, choose a set of demands, and actually take a risk. Behind this fight are a bunch of strategic schisms in the party over whether or not it makes sense to confront Trump in this way, to use what leverage they have to take this kind of risk. Schisms over whether or not to fight on lawlessness, authoritarianism, democracy, or to only focus on pocketbook issues. And now we're in the shutdown and the road out of it. and towards the midterms and eventually towards 2028 is going to require Democrats to face not just these, but a bunch of other schisms in their party over what kind of strategy works for them, what kind of voters they're trying to win back, and what those voters actually want.
To talk through both how we got here and where the Democratic Party is going, I want to invite on John Favre. Favreau, of course, was director of speech writing for President Barack Obama, and he is the co-host of the hit podcast, PodSave America. As always my email as recline show at nytimes dot com.
John Favreau, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. So I want to start in the strategic divide that led to this. You go back a couple of months, there's a debate inside the Senate Democratic Caucus, a House Democratic Caucus about whether or not to have a shutdown, whether or not that is a safe thing for Democrats to do. What are the two sides of that
debate? I think the side of the debate where people did not want to shut down is that uh the party that causes the shutdown almost never wins, that uh it was going to be impossible to wring any concessions out of the Trump administration. So why are Democrats closing down the government? What is the end game? What counts as a win? How do you get out of it once you get into it? And would Democrats who do not have as big a megaphone as Donald Trump and do not use it as well, would they really be able to make their case about the shutdown in a way that is as effective or more so than Donald Trump? The other side of the argument is Donald Trump has basically usurped the power of Congress on a number of levels, whether it's tariffs, whether it's rescisions, whether it's impoundment, whether it's all of his immigration policy, whatever else.
But he is on a number of those fronts possibly violating the law. And things are getting pretty scary in America right now. And this is sort of the one leverage point that Democrats will have between now and the midterms to Potentially not just force changes in how Donald Trump behaves, but also grab people's attention. And also that argument is if we don't shut the government down, if we don't move forward, Donald Trump is just going to continue governing exactly as he's governing. And he's going to continue to impose tariffs. He's going to continue to do immigration enforcement exactly as he's doing it now. And nothing will change. And then we'll have the midterms and maybe that will be enough for Democrats to win.
Just people's dissatisfaction with the way that Donald Trump is running the government. But maybe we shouldn't bet on that because right now all the polling is, you know, shows a democratic lead, but small enough that it's not something that we can be confident about.
And the Democratic brand in tatters. Yes. So then there's a another division that opens up between the let's have a normal shutdown and let's have an abnormal shutdown, which is to say when you were describing the pro-shutdown side, you were focusing on Trump's lawlessness, the authoritarian tactics, you know, as I put it in in my essay, masked men in the streets, right?
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Chapters
5 chapters
1
What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
0:00–5:19
2
Why did Democrats choose a government shutdown as their first strategic move against Trump?
5:19–11:52
3
What were the main arguments for and against shutting down the government?
11:52–26:44
4
How is the shutdown being used to highlight healthcare subsidies and cost‑of‑living issues?
26:44–45:53
5
What does the shutdown mean for the upcoming midterm elections and House races?
45:53–1:10:45