Show notes
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe writes contemporary mysteries from a unique Cherokee Nation viewpoint. She is a member of the Cherokee Nation herself and so is her lead character, Sadie. Sadie is an independent-minded entrepreneur with a keen sense of justice that gets her caught up in all sorts of tricky situations.
Hi there, I’m your host Jenny Wheeler, and today Sara talks about her latest book, Betrayal at the Buffalo Ranch, the fourth in her Sadie Walela mystery series. She recounts how a book that started out being about how women got a bad rap in banking turned into a bank robbery mystery. And she recalls the day she got stopped at Heathrow for having an American Indian name, believe it or not.
We’ve got three eBook copies of Betrayal at the Buffalo Ranch for three lucky readers in our Mysteries Alive Giveaway. Go to our Binge Reading website www.thejoysofbingereading.com, click Giveaway to enter, and you won’t miss out. You will find links to Sara’s website and books in the show notes for this week’s episode there as well.
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Six things you’ll learn from this Joys of Binge Reading episode:
The life change that freed Sara to write
Growing up Cherokee in Oklahoma
A matriarchal society reflected in her fiction
The authors she admires
How the pandemic has affected her creativity
Turning her banking career into fiction
Where to find Sara Sue Hoklotubbe:
Website: http://www.hoklotubbe.com/books.htmGoodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/520532.Sara_Sue_HoklotubbeAmazon: https://www.amazon.com/Betrayal-Buffalo-Ranch-Walela-Mystery-ebook/dp/B0786M1Y5B/
To schedule an event with Sara contact: Publicity Manager, The University of Arizona Press 1510 E University Boulevard, P O Box 210055 Tucson, Arizona 85721 Tel: 520-621-3920
What follows is a “near as” transcript of our conversation, not word for word but pretty close to it, with links to important mentions.
But now, here’s Sara.
Jenny Wheeler: Hello there, Sara and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us.
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: I am delighted to be here. Thank you for the invitation.
Introducing Cherokee nation author Sara Sue Hoklotubbe
Jenny Wheeler: You have got a four-book mystery series and there is something very unique about them because they’re set in the Cherokee Nation in Northeastern Oklahoma. You are a tribal citizen of the Cherokee Nation yourself and your heroine Sadie, the lead character in your stories, is as well. That must be a special thing for you.
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe – mystery author
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: I am Cherokee from my mother’s side of the family. In my book, my character Sadie is Cherokee through her father’s side of the family. It is a unique setting in that I write from the Cherokee perspective where not every mystery writer can do that if they’re not Cherokee.
Jenny Wheeler: That’s absolutely right. With this Western promotion we’ve been doing, I’ve been reading a few more Western books than I do normally. I have been quite surprised at how many pay homage in various ways to the native people, but they don’t have the inside perspective. They’re all outsiders looking in, so that gives you a unique perspective.
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: It certainly does.
Jenny Wheeler: How do you think it makes your books different? How is it reflected in the writing?
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: When writers first start writing, they are told to write what they know. Of course, I’m Cherokee, so that’s what I know. In the stories I write, since I am writing about Cherokee country and have Cherokee characters, I believe it makes them more authentic in their everyday life and how they live.
Myths and realities for Cherokee National modern living
Jenny Wheeler: You would have a very good appreciation of what modern life is like for the Cherokee wouldn’t you, because these are contemporary novels.
Lake Eucha – Oklahoma – camping and fishing spot where Sara Sue Hoklotubbe grew up
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: That’s correct. Rather than writing historical fiction, I decided to write in the current day because there’s so much misinformation out there about Indian life today. I’ll tell you a little story.
When I was a teenager, I was working in a restaurant on the shores of Lake Eucha. A man came in and said he wanted to know if I could tell him where to find the Indians. I said, well, I’m Cherokee. Does that count? He said, no, I’m looking for the Indians and their teepees riding their horses. I started laughing because I thought he was joking. He was not joking, and he had two young kids with him.
It made me realize that people from outside of Oklahoma had no idea how Indians live in today’s society. They think we’re all riding horses and living in teepees. When I started writing, I wanted to make sure that people got an accurate portrayal of what’s going on in today’s life.
Jenny Wheeler: Lake Eucha is where you grew up, isn’t it?
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: Yes.
Jenny Wheeler: Is that part of a reservation or is it normal country?
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: It’s within the Cherokee Nation area, the Cherokee Nation reservation, where I grew up. It’s a nice lake, a great fishing lake.
Jenny Wheeler: Do you get a lot of tourists there?
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: Yes.
Betrayal At Buffalo Ranch – #4 in the Sadie Walela series
Jenny Wheeler: That’s great. The most recent book in the series is called Betrayal at the Buffalo Ranch. It sets up the dynamic of an unscrupulous landowner with big plans to turn his ranch into one of those places where rich men come and shoot animals. Some of the locals, both normal Americans and Cherokee, are upset about these plans. They think it’s going to be horrible for the district to have something like that there.
But there are some Cherokee in your story who are going along with it and plotting with him. That produces some of the complexity about the relationships now, doesn’t it?
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: Yes it does. Those characters who are working with the ranch owner were not exactly interested in the hunting aspect of the ranch as much as they were wanting to skim some extra buffalo off the number of buffalo that were being brought into the ranch so that they could sell them and make extra money.
It was a greedy aspect of a way to make some money. I suppose you’re going to find those kinds of people in all walks of life.
Jenny Wheeler: How much of your story is founded in fact, in things that have actually happened, and how much is it your inspiration?
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: The places are true. There is no buffalo ranch around Eucha. There is however a buffalo herd that is owned by the Cherokee Nation. I don’t think they’ve been doing anything like I suggested in my book – that’s all fiction – but they are using the buffalo herd to help with meat for the elders in the tribe and making money. It’s a money-making thing.
A woman protagonist with a definite independent streak
Jenny Wheeler: They have rights to do that?
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: Yes, and they’ve gotten some of their buffalo from the Yellowstone National Park.
Jenny Wheeler: That’s interesting. Sadie is a businesswoman with a romantic relationship with one of the deputy sheriffs in the county. She’s close to the law, but she is very much an independent woman. She isn’t a law officer as such herself, and that produces a bit of tension in the romantic relationship, doesn’t it? Tell us about Lance and the way he came into the book. There’s an interesting story associated with how Lance even came to be there in the first place, isn’t there?
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Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: There is. As you say, Sadie is a very independent woman. She owns her own home on land that she got from her Cherokee father. She’s a businesswoman. In the first book she has a short-lived marriage that didn’t turn out well, so she is very cautious about getting married again. There is a tension between her and Lance Smith because she’s certainly fallen in love with him, but she’s very hesitant to let him tell her what to do or anything like that.
In the first book, when I sent my manuscript to the University of Arizona Press, they liked it because it is current day Indian country. They asked me if I could add another professional character such as a doctor or a lawyer. I thought about it, and I ended up adding Lance Smith. I had to go back and rework my manuscript and add this character, which is not too easy to do, so he doesn’t have a huge part in the first book, but he is there as a police officer.
Listening to your editor’s wise guidance
In the second book, he takes on a much larger role and that’s when he and Sadie become romantically involved. As it has come along, the readers have also fallen in love with Lance. He is one of their favorite characters, so he’s here to stay, and he was added as an afterthought to that first book.
Jenny Wheeler: I know a little bit about your own life story from what I’ve read online. You sound as if you’ve been a remarkably independent woman in your own right. How much of you is there in Sadie?
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: I’m not Sadie and Sadie isn’t me. She is more or less a compilation of a lot of people I’ve known, and she’s a character I admire and maybe would like to be more like. That being said, there are a few parallels. We are both Cherokee. We both live near Lake Eucha where I grew up and we both worked in a bank at one point in time. We both had an aunt who owned a restaurant – that is in the second book. So we do have a few things in common, but she’s probably a little more daring than I am.
Jenny Wheeler: You mentioned that the University of Arizona Press is your publisher, and I found that interesting because you generally think of university publications as being more academic. Does the University of Arizona Press do many popular fiction books, or was there particular interest in the Cherokee angle and the cultural heritage you’re preserving?
Landing with the University of Arizona Press
Deception On All Accounts – Book #1 in the Sadie Walela mystery series by Sara Sue Hoklotubbe
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: When they accepted my first book for publication, they were not publishing much fiction at all, much less a mystery. In fact, I had submitted it as a mainstream novel, thinking I would get a better chance of being published. But they knew right off it was a mystery and pointed that out to me.
Yes, you’re correct in that they were very interested in the cultural aspect of the Cherokee characters and the story being told in current day. It reflected real life today in Indian country. I think it was as important to them as it is to me not to feed misinformation about Indian people to the readers – like I was talking about a while ago – and the fact that I write from a Cherokee perspective. I think they liked that.
Jenny Wheeler: In modern day Cherokee Nation, are the women playing a leading role and are they managing to find their own agency?
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: Women are very strong in the Cherokee Nation. Historically, the tribe was a matriarchal society and so women took a large role. One of the biggest roles I can tell you about is Wilma Mankiller, who was chief of the Cherokee Nation in the past. She was a very strong leader. Independent women in the Cherokee nation is very common.
Jenny Wheeler: I didn’t realize it was a matriarchal society. You have had great endorsements from some of the leading Western writers. That includes Craig Johnson, the author of Longmire series, and also Tony Hillerman who was one of the first to start writing mysteries with an Indian perspective. Did you get a thrill when they came out and praised your work?
Getting an endorsement from Tony Hillerman – a hero role model
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: Definitely. I will never forget the day my editor called me to tell me she had an endorsement from Tony Hillerman, because he had been such an inspiration to me. I felt if he could write as a non-Indian about the Navajo people and do it in such a wonderful way, then why couldn’t I do it about my people, the Cherokees. He had definitely been a huge inspiration to me.
I actually had the opportunity to meet him and give him a signed copy of my first book, and he was such a gracious man. It was just a thrill to meet him and get his endorsement. Then shortly after I met Tony, I was invited to sit on a panel with Craig Johnson at the Tucson Festival of Books. He too is a very nice, gracious man and he writes wonderful books, so I am really grateful to him and all the other authors who have endorsed my work. It is very humbling.
Jenny Wheeler: Tell us a little bit about your journey to getting published. What inspired you to start writing in the first place, and then secondly, to tackle mysteries?
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: I spent 21 years in the banking business working that 9 to 5 job, banging my head against that glass ceiling, and didn’t get very far. I got pretty far, but not as far as I would have liked to.
How a book about discrimination in banking turned into a mystery
Then, at the age of 45, I got married for the first time and moved away. I was living in Oklahoma and my husband was working in Hawaii at the time, so we moved to Hawaii. I discovered that it was not easy for me to get a job with all that experience, because I was an outsider, so my husband encouraged me to try to do something that I had not had the chance to do before.
That is when I started writing. When I first started writing, I thought I’ll write a book on how women are discriminated against in the banking business. I started my first book with a bank robbery, and the characters just took over. It turned in a completely different direction and ended up being a mystery. I think it was because that’s what I like to read. The characters literally took over writing that book.
Jenny Wheeler: That became the first book in the series.
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: Yes.
Jenny Wheeler: Have you ever been involved in a bank robbery in your years in banking?
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: I have not personally been involved in a bank robbery, but my best friend was working at a different branch, and the bank robbery in my first book is based on that particular real event, except that in real life nobody got killed. But the way the robber broke into the bank is exactly the way it happened in real life.
Is there one secret to your success as a mystery author?
Sinking Suspicions, a Sadie Walela mystery by Sara Sue Hokolotubbe
Jenny Wheeler: A perennial question I like to ask every author that I speak to is – is there one thing you’ve done in your writing career more than any other, that you would see as the secret of your success? It is a wonderful success in its own right, to have written four books, and I presume you’ve got more coming. How have you managed to get your foot on the ladder?
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: I think I need to give credit to all the support I’ve received from so many people. First of all my husband, who is willing to put food on the table and a roof over my head while I sit around and write all the time. I have had support from the Cherokee Nation, the elders and Cherokee fluent speakers who helped me with the language.
My publisher has been exceptionally supportive, and that gave me the opportunity to say ‘yes’ to an invitation to speak at the National Book Festival in Washington DC in 2014. That was an opportunity of a lifetime. They also arranged for invitations to the Tucson Festival of Books, where I got to meet so many other authors and so many readers. I’m thankful to all the readers who have read my books and purchased them. The support has been overwhelming.
Jenny Wheeler: How about the craft side of it? Had you read so many mysteries that it came naturally to write in the mystery form? Or did you look at craft books or take classes from other writers? Did you do anything around that area to try and develop a bit more confidence as you went along?
How Sara Sue started on her writing
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: When I first started writing, I took some non-credit classes at my community college. That got me remembering the things I learned when I was in college, in writing classes and things like that. I was able to start writing then. I went to a lot of seminars and writing conferences and learned from other authors, heard them speak.
I think when putting together a mystery, there is a gift to be able to put all those different facets together, to have all those threads come together at the end of the book so that the reader is satisfied. Quite frankly, I don’t know how I learned to do that. I think it’s probably from reading a lot of mysteries.
Jenny Wheeler: It’s interesting that you said the characters in book one almost took over. Can I assume in that case that you’re more of what they call a pantser? The story develops as you go along, rather than doing a very strong outline so that you have got an idea of what happens when before you even start. Which way would you tackle it?
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: You’re correct. I write by the seat of my pants, so I’m a pantser. When I first started out everybody said make an outline so that you know where you’re going with your book. I knew where it was beginning, and I knew where it was going to end. I tried to make an outline, but then when I started writing and trying to follow the outline, it seemed like the characters wanted to go somewhere else and do something else, and so I gave up trying to follow an outline.
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Sara Sue as reader – what are you reading now?
A lot of times I will write and not know where that scene is coming from. It’s almost as if I’m watching a movie in my head, and I’m writing down what I see in my head.
Jenny Wheeler: Turning to Sara Sue as reader. This is The Joys of Binge Reading, and we like to hear what you’ve enjoyed reading in the past and presently. Can you make some recommendations for our listeners as to what they might like to read, and new names they might not be aware of? Tell us about your own reading. You obviously have been a big reader right through your life.
Neither Wolf Nor Dog – an award winning book which is now a powerful movie….
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: When I was working in the bank, I didn’t have a lot of time for reading, but my husband introduced me to Tony Hillerman’s books and as I said earlier, he was such an inspiration to me. Then I discovered the mysteries written by Margaret Coel. She also writes about the Indian, and she has Indian characters. So does Craig Johnson, we mentioned him earlier. I love all their books. (Craig Johnson on The Joys of Binge Reading)
I also enjoy reading William Kent Krueger’s mysteries. ((Kent Krueger on The Joys of Binge Reading.) I really like his writing as well. There is another author I would recommend, and he is Kent Nerburn. He writes nonfiction but it reads like fiction. His book Neither Wolf nor Dog is fast becoming a classic. Those are some of the authors I enjoy reading.
Jenny Wheeler: Tell us a bit about Neither Wolf nor Dog. Is that relating to feeling that you don’t fit in anywhere? Is that part of the theme or image that is portrayed in the book?
Finding your place in a modern world – Neither Wolf Nor Dog
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: Yes. He writes about an Indian elder and the lessons he learns from that elder. In the book there is a statement that he’s neither wolf nor dog, he’s neither Indian nor white. He’s in the middle. That’s a conflict that goes on with a lot of Indian people.
Neither Dog Nor Wolf – an award winning book by Kent Nerburn
Jenny Wheeler: Is it one you have felt yourself?
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: Somewhat, yes. I haven’t suffered the discrimination of being an Indian as much as other people have. I was singled out when I was flying through London Heathrow airport one time. They pulled me out of line and asked me what kind of name I had, and I tried to explain to them that it was American Indian.
I didn’t think they would understand it was Choctaw, which my husband is. This is my husband’s name. They took me aside and searched me and searched my carryon luggage. That is the first time I had been singled out because of my Indian name.
Jenny Wheeler: Just because of a name. That is pretty extraordinary, isn’t it?
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: It really is very unsettling.
Jenny Wheeler: It’s not as if you are going around with a feather headdress on or anything like that, is it?
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: Exactly.
Jenny Wheeler: Looking down through the years now, at this stage of your career, if you were doing it all over again, is there anything you would change, or do you feel it’s all happened the way it should have happened?
What if anything would Sara Sue change?
Margaret Coel – An Arapaho mystery – Winter’s Child
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: I don’t think I would change anything because if I had taken a different fork in the road, I wouldn’t be where I am today. I like where I am today and how it’s all turned out. I think everything happens for reason, and this is where I ended up, and being an author of these books is very rewarding.
Jenny Wheeler: Tell us how you organize your writing day. Do you have a particular time block that you set aside, or a particular number of words you want to reach? How do you do it in a practical sense?
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: I try to get around in the morning and do what I’m going to do, and then settle down to write. Some days I’m able to write quite a bit and some days not so much. I try not to tie myself to a computer. If I’ve got something that needs to come out of my head and write, I certainly do that. But I also realize that at this stage of my life, there are trips to the ocean and trips to the mountains and things like that, that I’m not going to give up to sit and write. So I write as much as I can until I am comfortable with it and then move on to something else.
Jenny Wheeler: What is next for Sara the writer? What projects have you got on over the next year or so, and is there anything in the way of a new series that you’ve got there in your head somewhere?
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: I’ve been contemplating. I was not able to write very well during the pandemic. It was hard for me to write about a murder mystery when there were so many people dying. It was just too hard for me to do it. Now that I am settled down, I’m beginning to get my thoughts in order for the next Sadie adventure and get to work on that. I don’t have a projected time on that just yet.
Jenny Wheeler: That will book five, won’t it? Have you got a title for that one yet?
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: No, not yet.
What Sara Sue is working on now
Jenny Wheeler: How do you get your titles in the end?
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: I’m not very good at picking titles, and it’s probably a good thing that my publisher reserves the right to pick the title. I’m very grateful that when they get ready to pick the title, they ask me my thoughts. I have some input on the title, so that’s good. I have come up with different titles when I write the manuscript, but then by the time they get ready to publish it, they’ve come up with something better.
Jenny Wheeler: You’ve mentioned your readers and the feedback you got on Lance. It sounds like you enjoy hearing from your readers. How do you communicate with them usually? Do you do much online or is it more in person? Tell people how they can reach you if they wish to be in touch.
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Where readers can find Sara online
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: They can find me on Facebook under sarasuehoklotubbe, or they can go to my website which is hoklotubbe.com. I have been surprised and amazed that I have heard from so many readers through my publisher, University of Arizona Press. I have received cards from readers, and I try to answer each and every card that I get. I’m amazed at that. I’m honored.
Jenny Wheeler: What is the most common feedback you get?
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: A lot of people tell me they relate to something in my book. Different things from different readers, but they’ll say that there was a connection they made with the story I was telling. It makes me feel good that I can touch people in that way.
Jenny Wheeler: You are in Maui, and you mentioned the pandemic. I haven’t seen very much about the figures in Hawaii. Has Hawaii been as badly affected us the mainland?
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: Hawaii certainly shut down and has been shut down a lot longer than places on the mainland. But this summer they’ve started opening back up because so many people that did not get to travel during the pandemic are now coming back. We have a great number of people coming into the Islands, but they have to take a test and prove they don’t have the virus or show that they’re vaccinated.
They are being very cautious here in Hawaii. There is still a mask mandate, so that when you’re indoors in a restaurant or stores, you have to wear a mask. That is certainly not the case on the mainland. The numbers are going up here, but not like they are on the mainland, thank goodness.
Signing off – and what you might like to listen to next
Jenny Wheeler: That’s great. Thank you so much for your time. I would like to mention that everything we’ve talked about today will be put online in the form of show notes. A full transcription of this chat, plus any links we’ve made to your books and your social media, will all be there so that anyone listening who wants to go online and find those links, they’ll all be there for them to reach out to you.
Sara Sue Hoklotubbe: Wonderful. Thank you so much. This has been delightful.
If you enjoyed hearing about Sara Sue’s Cherokee Nation mysteries you might also enjoy Anne Hillerman’s Navajo Country mysteries.
LISTEN TO ANNE HILLERMAN
Thanks To Our Technical Support:
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