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The Knowledge Project

How to Think Like a World-Class Marketer | Rory Sutherland

09 Dec 2025

Transcription

Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?

0.031 - 7.819 Rory Sutherland

I keep hearing people saying, you will say to your AI, find me a skiing holiday, and it will provide you with a perfect skiing holiday.

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Chapter 2: How does AI influence our decision-making processes?

8.4 - 24.857 Rory Sutherland

And I keep saying, people don't decide like that. When you allow tech bros too much power over decision making, along with their running dog lackeys in kind of management consultancy, you're optimizing for something which may be very, very distant from what your real world customers really care about.

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Chapter 3: Are we prioritizing efficiency at the expense of value?

24.837 - 27.361 Unknown

What makes Tyson so effective at advertising?

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27.541 - 45.087 Rory Sutherland

Actually, it's not advertising. It's marketing and it's customer experience. What's the difference between marketing and advertising? Advertising is a subordinate part of marketing. And do you think we're looking for efficiency in the wrong place? We usually do. And so you focus too heavily on cost reduction and too little on value creation.

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45.107 - 50.355 Shane Parrish

What are the rules of good copy? If I asked you to teach me how to write good copy, how would you do that?

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50.635 - 53.68 Rory Sutherland

I think a large part of it comes down to...

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59.38 - 66.192 Shane Parrish

So we first, we were talking about this in the elevator. It was nine years ago. Back when podcasting wasn't even a thing.

66.432 - 69.638 Rory Sutherland

We must be able to dig out the original content, presumably. Yeah.

Chapter 4: What is the significance of trust in consumer behavior?

69.778 - 72.623 Rory Sutherland

What was it? It was your podcast number 47 or something, was it?

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72.924 - 80.697 Shane Parrish

Oh, no. I think it was like 16 or something. 16, really? It was really low. We'll have to dig out the number, but it's been a long time since then.

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80.677 - 81.519 Rory Sutherland

Oh, fabulous.

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Chapter 5: How does design impact customer experience?

81.639 - 102.28 Rory Sutherland

And podcasting is extraordinary. I've been following Farnham Street devotedly. I appreciate that. And it's always, always interesting. Very, very interesting. I mean, the whole question of the decision sciences is, I think, at the moment, completely critical. And actually, by the way, it'll be very, very interesting with AI.

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102.698 - 126.19 Rory Sutherland

Because I keep hearing people saying, you will say to your AI, find me a skiing holiday, and it will provide you with a perfect skiing holiday. And I keep saying, people don't decide like that. At the very least, you'll have to show them three or four or five skiing holidays from which they choose. Because we can't really choose in the absence of comparison. Do you see what I mean?

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126.491 - 133.302 Rory Sutherland

It's a sort of freakish element of free market capitalism, which is we can only like something if we choose it in preference to something else.

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133.742 - 147.184 Shane Parrish

That's interesting. How does that relate to like a travel agency, which would do that inherently? Like if you said, I'm going to India to chat GPT and you're like, plan it for me, versus you go to a travel agency and you're like, I'm going to India, plan it for me.

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Chapter 6: What strategies can enhance the effectiveness of marketing?

147.164 - 165.375 Rory Sutherland

Well, among real estate agents, there's apparently a kind of little bit of a trick, which is you always, before you show someone the house you want to sell them, you show them a less appropriate house, ideally that's slightly more expensive, say, so that when they see the house that you want to sell them,

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165.355 - 184.321 Rory Sutherland

It's now clear-cut because they can say, ooh, it's a bit cheaper than the other one, and it's got a conservatory. There's contrast. So there's a kind of decoy effect, a bit like the famous economist experiment with the decoy effect. So, you know, one of my interesting questions is, you know, what interface will AI deploy to help us make choices?

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184.962 - 192.713 Rory Sutherland

And will it make the mistake that you could very easily make? If you think about it, nobody clicks the I'm feeling lucky button on Google.

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193.3 - 211.984 Rory Sutherland

think it's still there isn't it it's been there for years and they've removed it and found that it slightly reduces the appeal but the number of people who actually click it i i'm feeling lucky take me straight to a single page is vanishingly small people want to choose between you know effectively above the fold options

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212.167 - 231.093 Rory Sutherland

And so, you know, I'm just intrigued because it's very, very easy, I think, for people with an economic or tech background to make assumptions about what people are trying to do and how they choose and that we're, you know, utility maximizers and all this kind of thing, only really to be completely wrong. Do you think we're looking for efficiency in the wrong place?

231.694 - 257.207 Rory Sutherland

We usually do, in the sense that when you pursue efficiency, there are quite a few problems. But when you pursue efficiency... Generally, you start looking at numerical or mechanical factors. And of course, in the process, you disregard psychological factors where the greater gains may be found. And so you focus too heavily on cost reduction and too little on value creation.

Chapter 7: What lessons can we learn from the Mad Men era of marketing?

257.748 - 272.22 Rory Sutherland

I mean, one of the greatest forms of efficiency, by the way, is employing a human being who's really, really nice. Now, this is complete anathema to people in tech who love to define business processes so as to make them susceptible to automation.

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Chapter 8: What does success mean in the context of marketing?

272.54 - 294.16 Rory Sutherland

You know, person X does this. We will take that function. We will replace it with algorithm Y. And it's a very beguiling message because it usually comes with cost savings attached. You might have heard of my thing, the Dorman fallacy. Did you? I'll remind you. I'll remind the viewers and listeners, which is simply that, you know, you have a hotel. It's a five-star hotel.

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294.401 - 312.056 Rory Sutherland

It has a doorman, someone who welcomes incoming guests. You know, a combination of, say, McKinsey or Accenture and a tech firm will come in and say, your doorman currently costs you X thousand dollars a year. We have defined his or her function as opening the door.

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312.497 - 330.153 Rory Sutherland

We will replace said doorman with automatic door opening mechanism and an infrared human detector and we'll save you $30,000, $40,000 a year. And then they walk away. They take the credit for the cost saving and And then two years later, you know, the hotel's a catastrophe.

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330.213 - 345.992 Rory Sutherland

The rack rate's fallen off a cliff because the doorman was doing multiple things, many of which were human and kind of tacit. Security would be one. You know, there are no vagrants to sleep in the doorway. Hailing taxis, dealing with luggage, recognizing regular guests, providing status to the hotel.

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346.453 - 353.802 Rory Sutherland

There are loads and loads of value creation components to that doorman, which aren't captured in the open the door definition.

353.782 - 358.548 Shane Parrish

Is that an example of where the costs are really visible but the benefits are invisible? Absolutely correct.

358.568 - 382.219 Rory Sutherland

Yeah, so it's very, very easy. Management consulting firms, if you're in a business and some management consultants come in, go to the management and say, are they on a gainshare agreement? A gainshare agreement is a management consulting scam where you claim a certain percentage of the cost savings you identify in year one.

383.498 - 399.448 Rory Sutherland

Now, as Roger L. Martin, your fellow Canadian and my own personal Svengali says, any idiot can cut costs, okay? What takes real skill is cutting costs in a way that doesn't destroy value. One of the things that I don't think is understood by tech nerds

399.715 - 426.004 Rory Sutherland

and if I'm being really cruel, males in general in many cases, is the extent to which in evaluating any business or experience, the human component of it, the face-to-face component, does really, really heavy lifting. I've got a lovely story to illustrate this, which I think is fantastic. It's the absolute perfect example of misalignment of optimization through quantification bias.

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