The Age of Supertechnology with Jamie Metzl
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What historical revolutions set the stage for today’s supertechnology?
This episode of The Nocturnists is sponsored by the Buxbaum Siegler Institute for Clinical Excellence at the University of Chicago. The institute is dedicated to fostering compassionate doctor-patient relationships and advancing clinical care. Each year, the Bucksbaum Siegler Institute recognizes extraordinary healthcare professionals through the National Clinical Excellence Award. To learn more about the award and to nominate a deserving clinician, visit bucksbauminstitute.ushicago.edu. Support for the Nocturnist comes from the California Medical Association.
You're listening to the Nocturnous Conversations. I'm Emily Silverman. Humans invent technology. It's just what we do. The agricultural and industrial revolutions were major tipping points in our history, transforming how we live and work. And while they led to incredible improvements in nutrition, living conditions, and quality of life overall, they also led to something extraordinary, a population explosion. Think about this. In 1928, there were around 2 billion people on Earth. By 2023, there were 8 billion. If you look at a graph, it's basically a right angle. And while that growth is a testament to human ingenuity, it also brings forward existential challenges. How do we feed and care for everyone while protecting the planet?
How do we prevent climate devastation, pandemics, large-scale war? Our guest today, Jamie Metzel, has been grappling with these questions for decades. He's a historian and science policy expert who served in the Clinton administration, advised to the U.S. National Security Council in the United Nations, and worked with the World Health Organization. He's also the author of multiple books, including the 2019 Hacking Darwin Genetic Engineering and the Future of Humanity, and several sci fi novels that use storytelling to make scientific ideas accessible to the public. Public. In his latest book, Superconvergence: How the Genetics, Biotech, and AI Revolutions Will Transform Our Lives, Work, and World.
Jamie argues that these technologies, which we normally think of as separate, are starting to converge into a single intertwined force that yes, poses threats to humanity, but can also be used to constructively guide us onto a better path. In our conversation, we explore Jamie's unconventional career path, the accelerating pace of technological advancement. And his perspective on the origins of COVID-19, including his view that a lab leak is the most plausible explanation. A topic that remains hotly debated, but nonetheless highlights the critical need for safety frameworks in scientific research. We also discuss how innovations like genetically modified food and lab-grown meat could help preserve wild land and reduce carbon emissions, and why it's critical to engage everyday people in conversations about humanity's future, instead of leaving those conversations only to experts behind closed doors.
This is a conversation that shifted my perspective. It's easy to focus on the risks and dangers of technology, but Jamie makes a case for how, with the right approach, we can turn those same technologies into powerful solutions to protect ourselves and the planet. But before we dive in, take a moment to listen to Jamie reading from his book, Superconvergence.
Imagine you're a farmer in eighteenth century England around the time the first seeds of the Industrial Revolution were being planted. You meet an enthusiastic inventor who describes to you the incredible new technology making it possible to replace some human power with energy derived from steam and coal? What would you think? Even if you were a big thinker, would your first thought be: here comes the International Space Station, CRISPR babies, and generative artificial intelligence, all direct outgrowths of our first steam engines? Or would you be imagining? That someday replacing the cattle and horses pulling your plows with steam-driven plows could help you do the same work a little faster. For most of us, the second option is how we normally think.
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Chapters
8 chapters
1
What historical revolutions set the stage for today’s supertechnology?
0:00–6:27
2
How did Jamie Metzl’s career path lead him to study the convergence of genetics, biotech, and AI?
6:27–12:28
3
What is “superconvergence” and why do genetics, biotech, and AI now intersect?
12:28–17:17
4
Why does Jamie argue that a lab‑leak is the most plausible origin of COVID‑19?
17:17–22:36
5
How can engineered food, lab‑grown meat, and biotech help mitigate climate change?
22:36–28:45
6
What governance framework does Jamie propose to manage accelerating revolutions?
28:45–35:34
7
How can global cooperation replace the failing United Nations system for emerging risks?
35:34–41:51
8
What optimistic vision does Jamie offer for humanity’s future with supertechnology?
41:51–47:27