#883: How to Legalize Medical Psychedelics in Your Country — Tania de Jong on The Playbook Behind Australia's World-First Breakthrough
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What article sparked Tania de Jong’s interest in psychedelic medicine?
Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show. My guest today is Tanya DeYoung, co-founder of Mind Medicine Australia. She and her husband, Peter, did something amazing. They beat the odds. And they came from the outside to lead a push that in 2023 made Australia the first country in the world to allow MDMA and psilocybin to be prescribed for psychiatric conditions. This was a huge moment. It took the whole world by surprise. And I wanted to understand how the hell did this happen? What did they do? What were the strategies? Was there a blueprint? Was it luck? Was it methodical step after step after step? What did they do? Is there a blueprint?
for making this type of massive change? Or are there strategies, at least, bits and pieces that you can apply in your own countries or to any ambitious project you might be trying to get off the ground? Because Tanya came into this field as an entrepreneur and a singer. She had no background in psychedelic research or psychedelics or drugs writ large, and ultimately helped build a massive campaign that changed an entire country. So we get into the practical details, as you know. That's the point of the show. We get into how did she manage to book first meetings? How did she identify the right people, recruit people who know more than she did at the time to be allies? How did they respond when regulators said no?
And more, that's just the beginning. There are some very unlikely turns along the way. There are some wild stories along the way. And as I mentioned, even if you don't care anything about psychedelics, if you're trying to get something really big off the ground, and you feel like the underdog. If maybe the deck is stacked against you, there is plenty in this conversation. Before I get the show notes for this episode, we'll contain all the exact dates that come up. Tanya and I both mentioned articles and events from more than a decade ago. So some of them are slightly off, but a lot of them are right. But nonetheless, show notes, Tim.blog slash podcast. You can find all the specifics. So I hope you enjoy this conversation with Tanya.
I did. There's a lot of of tactical takeaway to be applied. And you can also find her online and everything she's up to at mindmedicinaustralia.org.au. Thanks for listening. start shaking. Can I ask you a personal
question? Now would have
seen
an
appropriate time. What if I did the opposite? I'm a cybernetic organism
living tissue over a metal endoskeleton. Me, Tim, Ferris, Sean.
Where do you think it makes sense to begin? I mean, we could just begin with the trip treatment and how that domino knocked over so many dominoes and then what you did with all the momentum of said dominoes. Do you want to just begin there and we'll just chat through it?
In 2015, I came across your blog. Well, I'd been signing up to your blog for ages. I mean, I've been reading your books and admiring your biohacking courage to try all different things and experiment for yourself because that's very much how I also like to operate. I just don't believe anything until I try it myself. So being that person that had never had any alcohol, really, don't drink coffee, never got high, never had any drugs in my whole life until I read your five-foot blog and Back in December, I think it was 2015, when you said that you had donated 100,000 US dollars to the Imperial College with psilocybin for depression, I think it was, Tim?
2015 would have been Johns Hopkins with Roland Griffiths. So there was a depression study there.
That's right. So that was like a light bulb went off for me and I clicked on the link and I read the article and it was a fascinating article in the New Yorker magazine called The Trip Treatment.
Michael Pollan, the one and only.
That's right, by Michael Pollan. And I said to my husband, we have to do this. Please read this article. And he just, I think he thought I'd lost it. And he read the article and then he said, why don't you see if we can get into a trial? And so we then approached Robin Carhart-Harris, who has subsequently become a great friend of ours.
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Chapters
8 chapters
1
What article sparked Tania de Jong’s interest in psychedelic medicine?
0:00–17:27
2
How did Tania’s first psychedelic experience shape her future advocacy?
17:27–32:11
3
What role did Rick Doblin and MAPS play in launching Mind Medicine Australia?
32:11–47:44
4
How did the team build a nationwide grassroots movement and train clinicians?
47:44–1:05:35
5
What strategies helped convince the TGA to reschedule MDMA and psilocybin?
1:05:35–1:24:01
6
How are patients being treated and what outcomes are being seen in Australia?
1:24:01–1:39:24
7
What are the biggest cost and access challenges for psychedelic therapies?
1:39:24–1:54:39
8
What advice does Tania have for advocates trying to replicate this playbook elsewhere?
1:54:39–2:12:23
Speakers
2 identifiedMore from The Tim Ferriss Show
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