The Unplanned Podcast with Matt & Abby
Relationship warning signs & how to be likable w/ body language expert (Vanessa Van Edwards)
Wed, 12 Mar 2025
Can a single behaviour predict divorce with 93.6% accuracy? According to body language expert Vanessa Van Edwards, yes. In this episode, we unpack the silent cues that can make or break your marriage, the three fights every couple has, and why resentment is the real relationship killer. Plus, Vanessa shares how Botox might actually change your emotions, her journey from awkwardness to confidence, and the surprising science behind listening. This episode is sponsored by Chime, Hungryroot & Hiya. Chime: Make progress towards a better financial future with Chime. Get started today https://chime.com/UNPLANNED. Hungryroot: Visit https://hungryroot.com/unplanned and use code UNPLANNED to get 40% off your first box and a free item of your choice. Hiya: Go to https://hiyahealth.com/UNPLANNED and receive 50% off your first order. Get your kids the full-body nourishment they need to grow into healthy adults. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Chapter 1: What are the three main arguments every couple has?
All couples have the same three fights. They might dress up as other things, but down low, they're the same three fights. What are your three arguments?
That's too personal. Are you crazy?
Vanessa Van Edwards is a body language expert and recovering awkward person. Her book, Cues, appeared on the Wall Street Journal's bestseller list, and she routinely consults for top companies like Google and Amazon.
Let's talk about the science of Botox. It inhibits your emotional expression, and it also changes your emotional feeling. I did my anger lines. And you know what? I feel less angry. You're justifying Botox in a way. The one predictor of divorce. He can tell you if a couple will get divorced by watching a silent video of them. With 93.6% accuracy they'll get divorced. That's crazy.
A lot of people, they're like, why am I not charismatic? Why do I feel not likable? Why do I feel not memorable? It's actually because you are shutting down your nonverbal cues. It would actually help you the most.
Vanessa Van Edwards, welcome to Unplanned. Yay! Okay, is it okay if I give you a hug? I heard you're a hugger.
Oh my gosh, yes!
I love the hug.
So I was so curious how you'd react to that because you've said before that you botched a pitch when you tried to hug the producer who said verbally that they did not like hugs.
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Chapter 2: How can Botox affect emotional expression?
So my dad, I don't want to spill stuff, but basically I saw my dad go through some job losses as a kid. And so my framework for people liking me or being successful was, oh, if I can make enough money, that'll make my life perfect. I was the most depressed I've ever been when I had the most money I ever had, which was really weird.
So to hear you say that is really encouraging because people didn't go up to the billionaire. Yeah. They didn't go up to the billionaire. Like in my head, it's like, oh, the billionaire is the one who is that matters the most. No, they don't.
Yes.
There's a person, too. And people came up to you because they they connected to you because you were vulnerable and you were open to sharing real stuff, which made people like you.
I also think the richest people I know are the most lonely people that I know. Wow. And there's something there, I think, and I don't understand it. I don't understand why it's happening, but I think it's something to note that sometimes the richer you are, the more powerful you are, the more impressive you are, the less people feel they can connect to you.
Yeah.
Like, like people didn't want to go up to the billionaire. Cause like, Oh, you know, like, oh my gosh, like they're above me. Even though he didn't give that vibe at all, it was like there was a barrier there. And so I think like we should focus less on being impressive and more on finding our people. Like that's the intention that we should have. Um, there's a, can I do a set?
Can I share a study that I just learned that informed this? This doesn't come from me. Make this, there's a study that I found. I love science. I love research and research often gives me confidence to try something different. And I've always wondered about popularity and likability cause I've never felt popular. I never felt very likable.
And so I read this study and it was by a researcher who wanted to study the popular kids, like the popular kids in high school. And so he went to thousands of high school students across a variety of schools and he looked for patterns of why some kids were popular and some weren't. And he tested a ton of variables here.
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Chapter 3: What makes someone likable?
And like, what a gift you can give to someone to like, assume liking, to not make someone work for it, to not make someone try to impress you or earn it, that you're just going to give them the grace of liking them for who they are. And you're going to assume likeability. It's like such, it's such a powerful way to interact. And that changed my interactions with people.
I like that too because then the focus is less on yourself and your own behaviors, which can get hard to manage when you're in a conversation. You're like, oh, I have to do this, that, and the other. It's like you're actively listening and focused on the other person.
It's true. It tricks. I'm a social overthinker. I'll overthink what I'm going to say or what I did say. But when I'm like, oh no, this is about them. This is about you. Don't worry about what you're going to say. Just like them, like them, like them. It's like a trick. It like tricks you into stop not being so selfish, not thinking about yourself so much. So it totally is.
It like shuts down those thoughts.
It's weird how wanting people to like you does the opposite.
It does. I think it does.
Because I've seen that in my life. The more desperate I am for people to like me, the more people don't like me, which is so weird. And then when I'm just like, F it, dude. I'm so sick of trying this. And I'm like, here's my baggage. I'm F'd up. I'm weird. And everyone's like, wow, we like you, dude. And it's like, what?
I met my husband when I was on a boy diet. I was on a boy diet. This is when I was... My husband and I were college sweethearts. We were together for like 18 years. And I was like, you know, like dating and trying. I was trying and trying and trying to get, you know, boys to like me. And I was like, I'm on a boy diet. No more boys. Just hanging out with my girlfriends.
Just focusing on my schoolwork. I was in college at the time. And then my husband just... like a beautiful man comes out and I'm like, Nope, Nope. I'm on a boy diet. Nope. And so I actively, he'll tell you, I actively tried to ignore him and I tried to not have him like me because I was like, I'm on a boy diet. And then of course, I hear that so often.
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Chapter 4: How can I find my people and be authentic?
Okay.
TBD. I've only talked to her for two minutes. Exactly. And like, I assume liking, right? So like I would rather, instead of like, you know, I don't know, right? Like that disgust expression, which then, you know, like something is off here. It's like, gosh, TBD, I haven't gotten talked to her enough yet, but I'm excited to get to know her more. Right? Like that's more honest.
So look out for disgust around lying. You will often see that someone flashes a micro expression of disgust or holds their nose up in that crinkled expression when they are saying a lie. And that's because lying makes us feel very dirty, right?
this is a completely silly question but i can't stop thinking about it especially after reading cues yes what do you think about botox because talking about all these micro expressions like you can't quite like raise your eyebrows super well or crinkle your eyes to show happiness so what do you think about it are you okay let's talk about botox i'm not anti-botox i have botox oh
Where did you get Botox? I have Botox in my forehead. Can you see my, am I, am I surprised? I don't see any wrinkles. Yeah. And I also got a little bit on the side, a little bit on the side. So Botox. So are you hurting your micro expressions? I am hurting my micro expressions, but here's the good news is I have resting bothered face.
Oh.
RBF. Also known as resting face.
The B word.
And I look...
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Chapter 5: What are the signs of toxic relationships?
The second group was asked to skydive for the first time and wear a sweatsuit. So imagine like two different groups, right? Like both, they sweat a lot, but different kinds of sweat. Then they had unsuspecting participants smell the sweat in an fMRI machine. Now imagine this for a second. You're in an fMRI machine. You're asked to sniff sweat.
I smelled these, and the participants had no idea what they were smelling.
Oh, great.
No idea, right? So can you imagine? I hope they paid them a lot. I hope they paid them a lot for the study. The participants who smelled the fear sweat caught the fear. Really? They began to feel afraid in the scanner. It actually lit up the fear part of their brain. Which shows there's so much going on. That's why I said you got to listen to your intuition, that dread.
Because if someone was making you feel afraid, your brain might realize it before you even consciously realize what's happening. And so I think going back to the very beginning of like, if you go into interaction, assuming liking, wanting to like this person, that smells... body language, vocal, pheromones, whatever it is, like genuine warmth. I want to like you.
I'm going to ask you questions that make me want to like you. I'm going to assume that you like me. That feeling is conveyed and it catches. Like I truly think that popularity is actually a contagion. We just like people who are sending those like beams towards us. Now there's one exception to this. We all know a popular person who wasn't very nice, right?
yeah that's what i was thinking about before i was like thinking about the regina george yeah regina george yes okay so there's it is a movie though but it's kind of like don't can't you think of someone who was like not very nice but was like very popular yeah probably yeah actually yeah so i think that we like people who like us and those people we want to bond with spend spend time with those people who we share our deepest darkest secrets with those people who we feel intimacy with but there is a type of person who is cool
who is powerful. And there is something about powerful people that we really like. And it has to do with our survival. If there was a cool, powerful, popular person, we want that person to like us because they're going to give us food. They're going to give us shelter. They're going to give a spot on the fire.
There was one study that even looked at powerful people and they found that the most powerful person in the room has a vocal power. Like right now, I'm using a very low vocal tone. When I'm with my kids or my husband, I tend to speak a little bit more like this. This is natural for me, but it's a little higher. But I don't usually use this kind of vocal voice for my podcast.
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