Chapter 1: What led to Ksenia Petrova's visa cancellation?
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Oma varallisuus on elämämme henkilökohtaisimpia asioita. Kun se luottaa toisen hoidettavaksi, pitää sen olla henkilökohtaista myös hänelle. Me OP Privatella ymmärrämme tämän hyvin. Myös jokaisella meistä on oma taloutemme, jota huolellisesti vaalimme. Samalla sitoutumisella suhtaudumme myös sinun varojesi hoitoon. OP Private. Otamme varojesi hoidon henkilökohtaisesti. Tutustu palveluun op.fi kautta private. Varainhoidon tarjoaa Osuspankki tai OP Varainhoito Oy.
AJ-tuotteet, Kirsi. Kyllä aivan oikein. Meiltä saa nopeat toimitukset. Kyllä tuotetta on varastossa. Kerämme pakkaamme ja lähetämme sen heti. Maailmassa kaikki tapahtuu yhä nopeammin. Siksi toimitusten on pysyttävä vauhdissa mukana, eikä työ pysähdy koskaan. AJ-tuotteilta saat kalusteet koko työpaikalle sekä nopeat toimitukset. Tutustu lisää ajituotteet.fi.
Last week I was on the radio telling the story of Australia's cane toads. It's a tale of success against the odds of a hundred animals picked up, moved to a new continent that have multiplied into a population of 200 million over the past century. At least that's the toad's point of view.
From humans and native Australian wildlife's point of view, it's been a disaster. An effort to control sugar cane pests has not only failed, it's introduced a far greater pest, toxic to other animals and capable of laying tens of thousands of eggs a year. Meanwhile, in other parts of the world, frogs aren't faring so well, with 195 species on the critically endangered list.
It seems that these amphibia are indicators, whether they boom or bust as a species, of ecosystems out of sorts. I'm Marni Chesterton from the BBC World Service. This is Unexpected Elements.
And I'm not doing this alone. I am joined by a couple of global science journalists. So hopping into the studio this week is Katie Silva, currently in Playa del Carmen, Mexico. Hello Katie. Hola, buenos dias. And calling in from Sao Paulo, Brazil, we have Camilla Mota. Hey Camilla. Oi Mone, hello.
Listeners, we are nerding out about frogs because this is a science program inspired by the news. And what we do on this show is we take a headline and then we use a story that takes our fancy to leap off into unexpected sciencey directions. And sometimes we chuck in an expert, we chuck in some archive. By the end of the episode we've hopefully, should that be hopfully, learnt something new.
And with all the frog chat in mind, this is what caught our attention this week. In another case, an American federal judge has ruled to reinstate a Harvard researcher's visa. Xenia Petrova was detained at Boston airport and accused of smuggling frog embryo samples into the country.
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Chapter 2: How do sperm behave in microgravity?
In France, at the behest of her supervisor, who asked her to do it, she was bringing them back into the US for her research into aging and cancer, and she was detained by the United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement, or ICE, and she ended up spending four months in a detention center.
Now I couldn't help but feel sorry for Petrova, because I've heard so many stories over the years of scientists carrying some quite bizarre things through airports, usually because these things that they're carrying are years of work, and you don't want to trust them with the postal service. And personally, I worked on posted frog embryos, so tadpoles, as a student, and I still worry that
that the changes that I saw in them were due less to the gene that we targeted and more due to them being squashed up in a ball in the post. So that wakes me up at night sometimes. Anyway, that's our starting point.
And normally we jump off from here to anywhere tangentially related and interesting. So team, where do we want to go? So I'll start. So, you know, when I think of embryos, I think of sperm. Okay. One of the two cells that bang into each other to start forming an embryo. Yes. And have you ever thought about what happens when you send sperm into space? Yes.
No, but now I have. I mean, is this because there's focus on Artemis 2? Where are we going with this? Oh, by the way, before we do, we do have a sister show called 13 Minutes, which has been following this mission closely. So if you want to nerd out on all the Artemis 2 stuff, then really do go there. So, Katie, sperm in space, tell me more. Sure. So, of course, Artemis as well is about trying to
voidaan lisätä tämä ajatus siitä, voidaanko muuttaa maailmaa. Suurin ongelma siinä olisi, voidaanko muuttaa maailmaa. Uusia tutkimuksia Australiassa tarkoittaa, että spermi saattaa olla melko yksilöitäsi, joten se on menossa, kun se yrittää löytää äidin, jos se toimii maailmassa. Adelaiden yliopistossa tutkittiin spermiä mikrograviittisuudesta ja löysi, että kuten astronautti, spermi pysyvät ympäri, eivätkä he jätä eteenpäin.
It's hard for them to find the egg. So is this just scientists messing with sperm for fun? Or is this important? It is important. It's about this concept of us trying to move to space. And of course we've got the likes of Elon Musk and Mars and the moon, NASA going again.
Voisimmeko koskaan elää siellä? Se ei ole vain se, että voimme saada tarpeeksi tuotantoa, vaan myös se, että voimme muodostaa. Toisaalta, esimerkiksi, pitäisi aina mennä takaisin maailmalle, jotta saadaan enemmän ihmisiä. Olen miettinyt, miten tämä tutkimus on tehty. Onko he pyytäneet astronauttia tekemään jotain erityistä? Onko he laittaneet spermiä pienissä maatilanteissa?
Ei, he eivät. Tämä voisi olla tulevaisuuden tutkimus, Marni. Tämä oli käsitelty maailmanlaajuisessa labissa. He käyttivät spermsamplia ihmisistä, maista ja pyykkäistä. He laittivat heidät koneeseen, joka ymmärtää mikrograviteettia. Se on kutsuttu klinostatille. Se rotoittaa, jotta saadaan pois gravitaatioiden suuntaamista. Se vaikuttaa säästöihin, jotka eivät oikein saa, millä suuntaan he käyvät. He laittivat heidät koneeseen, joka simuloi naisen reproduktiivisen traktin. He tarkastelivat, voivatko he päästä ylös äidille.
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Chapter 3: What groundbreaking research involves limb regeneration in embryos?
They found that even the embryo then developed, if they did make it to the end, was impacted because of their exposure to microgravity. Okay, so if you make sperm dizzy, the results are bad, not just for the likelihood of actually getting there, but the resulting embryo might be affected too.
It does paint a pretty worrying picture and it seems that those embryos that were exposed to simulated microgravity had a different number of fetal cells in the embryo. But the researchers said that thankfully while some embryos were negatively impacted, there were others that were healthy. And so there is some hope that we might one day be able to reproduce in space.
Okei. Ja onko siellä mitään hyötyä 8 miljoonan meistä, jotka eivät koskaan yrittäisi reproduktioida maassa ja jotka ovat vain ympäri maata? Järjestelmäkirjoittaja sanoi, että tutkimus auttaa meitä ymmärtämään paremmin, miten spermi avataan.
and move through the female reproductive track. So I guess it could have some benefits when it comes to fertility research. Researchers haven't really talked about that just yet. But as you say, it might sound relatively sci-fi or literally out of this world, but in February scientists actually called for more research into reproductive health and space. They said that it was urgently needed, that they need an international collaboration to try and close these knowledge gaps, because I guess we don't know what the future holds.
Thank you, Katie. Very topical. Two news stories in one.
On the subject of embryos. Did you know that they have extraordinary regeneration abilities? Yes, there was some research at the start of this year where some scientists in France got to narrow down the window where mice embryos can regrow a front limb. And apparently the key seems to be having a certain type of cell called neural crest cells, which start this amazing process. And sadly, this is just a window that happens before the mouse is even born.
Tietysti. Suurin osa eläimiä on myöhemmin menossa elämään. Jos menemme, emme voi saada se kasvaa takaisin. Oikeastaan on hienoja eläimiä, kuten vihreät, kivet ja salamennit, jotka voivat regeneraoittaa lintuja. Suurin osa ei voi tehdä sitä. Kivet ovat asia tänään.
can't grow back arms and legs despite being closely related to salamanders. Just like what happens with us mammals when frogs get injured, the cells that rush to the wound focus on building scar tissue and not regeneration, so it's one or another.
Okay, so bad luck frogs. Be more salamander, right? But how? Right. So scientists from Harvard and Tufts University in the US were able to make African clawed frogs rebuild the leg they amputated by using a wearable bioreactor.
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Chapter 4: What is the connection between frogs and pregnancy tests?
Se oli juuri 24 tuntia. Se oli olemassa juuri 24 tuntia ja sitten poistettu. Sen jälkeen, emmekä skaritissuudet ole olleet tekemässä, kivit alkoivat jatkuvasti regeneraatioon 18 kuukautta. Ja se, mitä minä mainitsin, on tärkeä.
It was five different drugs, and each one of them had a different purpose. So one was aimed at reducing inflammation, another inhibited the production of the collagen that it would lead to scarring, another one fostered the growth of new blood vessels, muscles, bones, etc., etc.
Oikeastaan. Ja kuuluiko kala normaalisti, kun se kasvoi takaisin? Melkein. Suurin osa halkoja, jotka olivat olemassa koulutuksessa, kuten uusi kala, oli ruokavessuja, taitoja, musseja ja ruokavirtoja, jotka olivat erilaisia kuin heidän toisinsa. Ja vaikka he eivät olleet tuotaneet ruokavirtoja, se ei voinut vahvistaa uudistuneen halkan lippuun, joten halkat olivat voineet vahvistaa takaisin, kuten normaali halka voisi.
Wow. And I can see suddenly why scientists are keen to do this, right? It's not just torturing frogs for the fun of it. This is potentially, if frogs can regenerate, then millions of people who've lost limbs due to trauma or illness could do something similar?
Kyllä, se on se idea. Paljon ihmisiä kuolee lintuja diabetesin ja muutamien muiden eläimien vuoksi. Ja kyse on meidän DNAn kohdalla. Tämä tieto on siellä, mutta eläimet, jotka eivät ole mahdollisia regeneraatioon, eivät voi käyttää tietoa kasvamaan lintuja vanhemmiksi.
What scientists wanted to do was access that, you know, to trigger regenerative capabilities so the body would perform complex growth and development of the lost limb without outside interference. And they call this latent embryogenic cascade. So there you have embryos again. And so in the future, maybe those who have lost limbs could be able to regenerate them? I mean, that's unbelievable. I guess it's a long, long way off.
Oh yeah, yes it is. They said that the idea is to start researching it in mammals, but still, yeah, a long way. And I was actually looking for videos of the research, couldn't find it, but the pictures on the paper, you can actually see the leg developing and it's quite, it was a bit sci-fi for me, I have to admit. Wow, that is tantalizing stuff. Wouldn't it be great if I could grow my legs back again, but about four inches taller? That would be great.
And tanned? Ideally. Listeners, do you have anything to contribute to this discussion? If you have a favourite frog fact or a tale of the weirdest thing that you've managed to get through airport security, please do email it to unexpected at bbc.co.uk or we have a WhatsApp number. That number is plus44 330 678 3080.
Still to come, the ferocious frog-eating fungus. Will it spell the last of them? That's coming up after this.
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Chapter 5: How is a devastating fungus affecting frog populations?
A, eggs are carried in a pouch on the mother's underbelly. B, eggs develop under the skin on the mother's back. Or C, fathers incubate tadpoles in their vocal sacs. Again, that's which of these is not a known method of frog parenting. A, eggs are carried in a pouch on the mother's underbelly. B, eggs develop under the skin on the mother's back. Or C, fathers incubate tadpoles in their vocal sacs. Hop to it, I'll be back soon with the answer.
You're listening to unexpected elements from the BBC World Service, where this week the story of a Harvard researcher wrongfully having her visa cancelled after bringing dead frog embryos into the USA has led us to tales of sperm and eggs in space and how to regenerate a limb.
Now, at the beginning of the show, I mentioned that frogs aren't faring so well with many on the critically endangered list. Of course, the usual suspects are at play here. We've got habitat loss, climate change and pollution. But there is something else. Back in the 1970s and 80s, a dramatic decline in frog species globally became apparent. And for a long time, we didn't know the cause.
One of the people who helped to solve the mystery is joining us now. Associate professor at Melbourne Veterinary School, Lee Berger. Welcome to the program. Thanks, Marni. Let's go back to the beginning of the frog apocalypse. When frogs began disappearing in the 70s and 80s, what did people think was going on?
Se tuli aikaa, kun kaikki tunnistivat, että jotain katastrofaalista tapahtui, koska rohkeudet onnistuivat. Mielestäni jotkut olivat hieman yllättyneitä, että he voisivat löytää rohkeudet. Oli paljon tutkimusta polluutista. Voivatko polluutit mennä alueisiin? Voiko se olla UV, joka vaikuttaa muodostumiseen? Aiemmissa 90-luvun aikana oli yli vuosi tietoa.
We knew by then that populations were crashing very rapidly. Sometimes they would go within months. In Australia there were a couple of guys who got together to work on this and they looked at this pattern of declines and decided it must be a waterborne disease of adult frogs that was spreading because they could see this spread of declines from south to north Queensland. Based on that they could predict where it was going next and they went to a
Population up in the far north that was still abundant. Yeah, sure enough, they were there at the time of the crash. And so that was the first time that sick and dying frogs were collected in Australia. And we had the bodies to begin an investigation on. And that's when I became involved as a PhD student.
So you were actually catching frogs? What was the field work like? I suppose in the rainforests you go out at night with a head torch and if you have the torch up by your eyes you can see the eye shine of the species. But I was mainly involved in the mortality event, so mainly working on dead frogs. When you looked at the dead frogs, could you see anything about them that made them look different to the healthy living frogs? We saw this
This round sort of microorganism in the skin. And when we took skin samples from frogs that had died and put that with healthy frogs, yeah, sure enough, they became infected and got sick within a few weeks. And then we knew it was actually a fatal infection. It took us a while to work out it's a chytrid fungus. So this phylum of fungi hadn't been found causing disease in animals before. And so that made it really challenging, I suppose, to work on this very unusual experiment.
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Chapter 6: What are the surprising benefits of probiotics for coral reefs?
up until midnight, into the wee hours trying to work it out. What was that like? Yeah, well, early on I suppose I thought, once we work out what it is, that will sort of solve the problem. But really that was the first step in trying to work out what to do about it. And it's been, what is it, 27 years later, we're still trying to come up with a solution. I suppose early on it was just a few of us, so I did feel a lot of pressure and everything. You've called this one of the worst diseases in recorded history. How many frog species has it affected?
Suurin osa oli, että noin 500 eläimiä maailmassa on pysynyt tästä infektiin, ja noin 90 ovat tietenkin pysyneet väärin. Joten kyllä, se on ollut katastrofi. Kerroit, että se vaikuttaa yläpäiväisille valkoiskulmille. Miten se oikeasti toimii? Miten valkoiskulma voittaa valkoisia?
Aiemmin se oli hieman iso mysteeri, koska maailmalla se ei todennäköisesti ole ongelma, mutta me tiedämme, että hieman ongelma on paljon funktioita, ja se on hyvin permiöinen, ja se on saanut kaiken tämän regulaation, jota se tarvitsee osmoregulaatioon ja pysyvän heidän permiöstä. Meillä oli opiskelija, joka työskennelli, että se on elettrolähtökohtainen käsitys hieman ongelmasta, ja he pysyvät permiöstä.
Sodium and potassium, which can go down to almost half what a healthy frog would have. And at that point, their heart stops. It's extraordinary that this disease got everywhere. I believe that one of my favorite frogs, because obviously everyone's got a favorite frog, the African clawed frog, Xenopus levis, which is a mouse model equivalent, but the frog version, that had the finger pointed at it as a key carrier, right?
Kyllä, he voivat olla infektiivisiä, mutta he ovat melko kärsiväisiä, joten he voivat pysyä terveellisemmin ja käsitellä infektiota. Aikaisemmin oli uskottu, että afrikkalaisen kloodin tuotanto olisi käsitellyt, koska he eivät olleet käyttöönotettaneet pitkän aikaa. Kyllä, meidän täytyy pysyä loppuun ja sanoa, että mitä?
Miksi olisit käyttänyt afrikkalaisen kloodin rauhan, jotta ymmärtäisit, onko ihminen sydäntäinen? Kyllä, se näyttää erilaiselta. Mielestäni 1930-luvun ja 1960-luvun välillä oli todella yleinen tapa tarkastella, onko ihminen sydäntäinen. Joten he otivat veneen ihminen sydäntäiselle rauhalle.
Ja jos syöpöydän hormonit olisivat siellä syöpöydällä, se laittaisi äidin päivällä. Se oli todella tarkka testi, joten se käytettiin pitkällä aikavälillä. Mutta kyllä, paljon äidistä on tuotettu tutkimukselle, kuten myös lapsille ja myös äidin lehille. Joten se on edelleen iso tehtävä muuttaa eläimiä ympäri maailman.
We can see that chytrid is still being moved around. I'd love to take a minute just to focus on what we've lost through those 90 species that have gone extinct. You mentioned one in Australia. Can you tell me about the gastric brooding frog and why that's so special?
Kyllä. Meillä oli kaksi tyyppiä gastrointipuolta, suomalainen ja norjainen, ja ne olivat ensimmäiset puolet, jotka pysyivät läpi. Ne olivat mahtavia. Suomalainen puolta pysyivät äidit, ja ne pysyivät pysyvät pysyvät, ja ne pysyivät pysyvät.
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Chapter 7: How do scientists study the impact of environmental changes on fish?
That's gutting. So forward to the present day. Is this disease still causing problems and how can we stop it? They estimated about 12% of species that declined are recovering probably due to evolution of resistance.
but definitely still a big problem. We still have a lot of species that are relying on captivity, but obviously we want to get frogs back out into the landscape, and that's a lot of the work now. One of the things I've been looking at is whether we can select more resistant frogs. The zoos have these amazing breeding programs, and we have found that resistance is heritable, so there is potential to go ahead with that. I guess we'll all keep our fingers crossed then. Dr. Lieberger, thank you so much for coming on to Unexpected Elements.
A story about imported frog embryos led us to ponder reproduction in microgravity and how a nutrient-rich soup of just the right chemicals could one day give us wolverine-like regeneration abilities. And we've just heard about the unexpected link between frogs and pregnancy tests and why a fungus has been devastating the amphibian population.
But don't leave the pond just yet. Coming up next we'll be hearing how fish's ears can help us understand ancient earth. We'll be finding out why I've always got room for pudding and I'll be attempting some frog physics. Stay with us.
Oma varallisuus on elämämme henkilökohtaisimpia asioita. Kun se luottaa toisen hoidettavaksi, pitää sen olla henkilökohtaista myös hänelle. Me OP Privatella ymmärrämme tämän hyvin. Myös jokaisella meistä on oma taloutemme, jota huolellisesti vaalimme. Samalla sitoutumisella suhtaudumme myös sinun varojesi hoitoon. OP Private. Otamme varojesi hoidon henkilökohtaisesti. Tutustu palveluun op.fi kautta private. Varainhoidon tarjoaa Osuspankki tai OP Varainhoito Oy.
Me AJ-tuotteilla annamme kaikille tuotteillemme seitsemän vuoden takuun. Siinä ajassa ehtii juoda töissä jopa viisituhatta kupillista kahvia. Tai ajaa trukilla neljä kertaa maailman ympäri. Ja kasvattaa bonsaipuun toimistolla. AJ-tuotteilta saat kalusteet koko työpaikalle aina seitsemän vuoden takuulla.
This is Unexpected Elements from the BBC World Service, the science show that takes its inspiration from the news. I'm Marni Chasterton in Cardiff in Wales and I'm here with... Katie Silver in Playa del Carmen, Mexico. And... Camila Mota in Sao Paulo, Brazil. So we are your panel of science broadcasters and we've reached the part of the show where one of our panel brings along a story that hasn't got much coverage...
and gives it its chance to shine. Katie, you are up. What have you got for us? And our theme this week is frogs. So, juicy fly for you, Katie, if you can link your story to the theme of this week's show. Well, I don't particularly feel like a juicy fly just yet. Thanks, Marni. I've got tacos and muskos for lunch, I think, later today instead. But I'm going to go a bit off topic here to talk about coral reefs. Okay, you win.
Okei, niin...
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Chapter 8: What are the implications of frog research for regenerative medicine in humans?
Do scientists know what fish were eating 7,000 years ago? Yes, so they looked at these tiny structures in fish called otoliths. They're also known as ear stones. They're basically little calcium bits in a fish's ear that help with hearing and balance, but also trap chemical signals from what the fish ate during its life. Now, the researchers compared these otoliths
So, Katie, exactly what did they find? So they found that the food chain had compressed, so that big fish are eating lower on the chain, while small fish are creeping up. And also fish have just lost their individuality. They used to specialize, now they don't.
And this matters because? Because variety means that a species can be resilient. So if you lose one food source, it wouldn't wipe out all the fish. You need that diversity. And it's not just fish that are impacted. It's about how the whole ecosystem functions. And now the whole system has basically fundamentally changed. Okay. And is that reversible?
It's unclear. The question would be how can you rebuild complexity and then of course incentivize the fish to eat that complexity. You know, Brazil has been heavily impacted by bleaching as well. It's a big problem here. But before we all got too depressed, I do have a good news story about coral reefs. So Brazilian scientists are teaming up with researchers from elsewhere in the world to see if probiotics could help with coral bleaching. Their research started at the Red Sea where they ran a huge pilot test and now they're trying to scale it up.
Ja koska me rakastamme mikroguttia, Mani...
Odota, kun kuulet tämän. Niin kuin ihmiset, korallit onnistuvat hyvien bakteerien kolonioihin, jotta ne pysyvät tervetullut. Kun ne on stressiä, esimerkiksi kun vesi on kuumempi, parantuminen hyvistä ja bakteerista tapahtuu. Ideana on, että hyvät bakteerit voidaan käyttää korallien auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton auton aut
And we can actually help. The scientists have even hypothesized that visitors could one day buy a probiotic to sprinkle on coral reefs during diving trips. Yes, doing their part in the global drive to restore damaged marine habitats. That's amazing. Wow, so sort of like you can buy breadcrumbs to feed the birds in sanctuaries sometimes. Yeah.
But actually do some good. I don't know if feeding the birds breadcrumbs will do any good for the environment. But yeah. Since we're doing show and tell and neither of you have mentioned frogs yet, I'm going to add in my two cents to bring us back onto the topic of amphibians. So this week scientists at Otago University in New Zealand emailed me a photo of a frog sporting what looks like a jetpack. It's not a
It's a tiny tracker and it's because they wanted to know how Hochstetter frogs roam, how much space these tiny frogs need. And the trouble is that these frogs are hard to see because, as I said, they're tiny. So you need to put tiny backpacks, so half a gram's worth of backpack on them to see where they end up. It's not like, for example, in the big felines where you put necklaces, right? You can't do that with frogs.
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