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You're Dead to Me

Lena Horne (Radio Edit)

22 May 2026

Transcription

Transcript generated automatically by AI and may contain errors.

Chapter 1: What was Lena Horne's early life and family background?

0.031 - 22.581 Unknown

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. A History of the United States in 100 Objects is a brand new podcast from 99% Invisible and BBC Studios. Each week, we're looking at a different object from across American history with a unique story to tell about who we've been, what we've built, and what we've allowed ourselves to forget.

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23.202 - 61.273 Unknown

Some of these objects are well known, many are not, but all of them carry the story of how we got to this moment. Find a history of the United States in 100 Objects on the 99% visible feed wherever you get your podcasts. Kortin myöntää OP väittäisasiakkaat OJ, lipputurvan myöntää Pohjola Vakuutus. Lipputurva on voimassa, kun ostat liput OP Goldin kreditominaisuudella.

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65.253 - 83.688 Greg Jenner

Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are donning our glad rags and finding our spotlight as we learn all about the legendary singer and Hollywood actress Lena Horne. And to help us, we have two very special fellow performers in History Corner.

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83.768 - 100.138 Greg Jenner

They're Associate Professor in Popular Music and Director of Black Studies at the University of Nottingham. They're an expert on musical theatre and especially race and gender identity in popular culture. You'll remember them from our episode on the history of Broadway. It's Dr Hannah Tericium Robbins. Welcome back, Hannah. Thanks for having me back. Delighted to have you back.

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100.358 - 114.464 Greg Jenner

And in Comedy Corner, an introduction feels completely redundant for such a stalwart of your dead to me. She's a comedian, actor and writer. You've seen her all over the TV on Taskmaster, Frankie Boyle's New World Order, QI, Too Hot to Handle. Maybe you've seen her incredible new stand-up show, The Golden Roth.

114.965 - 126.327 Greg Jenner

And you'll know her from so many episodes of this very podcast, including recent highlights, Sojourner Truth, and the history of Broadway. Not one episode. What an episode that would be. Yes, we're getting the band back together. It's Desiree Birch. Welcome back, Desiree.

126.347 - 130.114 Desiree Burch

Thanks so much for having me back, Greg. It's so nice to be back and find out what the heck happened before.

130.154 - 133.481 Greg Jenner

That's the alternative name of the show.

133.922 - 134.022

Yeah.

Chapter 2: How did Lena Horne start her career at the Cotton Club?

185.145 - 205.115 Greg Jenner

OK. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's spot on. Yeah. Yeah. It's quite the life. I mean, I didn't know half of this stuff and I'm really excited. So we better crack on. So what do you know? This is the So What Do You Know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject.

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205.135 - 223.174 Greg Jenner

And I'm guessing there's a lot of people who've heard the name Lena Horne, but maybe don't quite know who she is. Maybe it's the Desiree thing of The Wiz. If you're a fan of classic Hollywood movies, maybe you've seen her in Cabin in the Sky or Stormy Weather. Or you watched her star turn, as Desiree did, as Glymda, in the Wizard of Oz adaptation, The Wiz.

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223.754 - 240.698 Greg Jenner

Music lovers might recognise the song Stormy Weather, which is how I know about Lena Horne, or know her incredible voice from her dozens of albums. And, of course, if you were a kid or a grown-up, you maybe grew up watching Sesame Street and The Muppets and saw Lena Horne there. But what about Lena Horne's life story? How did she become the star of stage and screen?

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241.018 - 243.522 Greg Jenner

And what colour exactly is light Egyptian?

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244.183 - 244.283 Unknown

Yeah!

245.478 - 256.251 Greg Jenner

Let's find out. Right. Professor Hannah, starting at the beginning. When was Lena Horne born and what was her family background? We're 20th century, right?

256.551 - 278.455 Dr. Hannah Thuraisingam Robbins

Yeah, absolutely. So she was born on June the 30th, 1917, to what was a middle class black family. Her father, Edwin, was kind of a Renaissance man. He spoke six languages. He owned a restaurant and a hotel, but eventually he got caught up in gambling. Her mother, Edna, was an actress. However, her parents separated when she was three and she went to live with her paternal grandparents.

279.116 - 299.616 Dr. Hannah Thuraisingam Robbins

Lena's grandmother, Cora, was an amazing character. She was an early feminist. She was a community activist. And she took Lena to organising events and meetings alongside her schooling. She was very restrictive about Lena's original education. And Lena remembered that as the period of sort of stability and comfort during her childhood living with her grandparents.

299.596 - 311.475 Greg Jenner

So, Desiree, quite a nice start to life, judging by the, you know, 1917 could have been a lot worse. Could have been extraordinarily a lot worse. Yeah, absolutely. Her father, Edwin, was out of the picture.

Chapter 3: What challenges did Lena Horne face in Hollywood?

330.726 - 343.947 Dr. Hannah Thuraisingam Robbins

So when her grandmother died, she was forced to go back to living with her mother and her new stepfather, Mike. And she said that she couldn't really relate to this white man that her mother had married. And they fell on fairly hard times. Obviously, this was the Depression era.

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343.927 - 355.268 Dr. Hannah Thuraisingam Robbins

as you mentioned, and that led to them relocating from a fairly nice house initially to the Bronx and then to Harlem and trying to figure out how to make ends meet with both Edna and Mike losing their jobs in this time.

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355.849 - 366.508 Greg Jenner

Let's meet teenage Lena. Tina the Lena? Lena the Lena? I don't know. I haven't worked out what I'm doing with that yet, but let's meet her. What does she do to revive the family finances, Desiree?

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366.522 - 378.956 Desiree Burch

I am guessing that she has figured out some kind of song and dance situation to kind of help out. Like she's performing or doing something in the family business. No, you're spot on, I think. We start our story with not singing yet.

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379.257 - 403.236 Dr. Hannah Thuraisingam Robbins

Dancing? Yeah, absolutely. So she's 16 years old. Neither her mother or her stepfather have a job. So she secures an audition at Harlem's legendary Cotton Club. Yes. And it's worth saying that the Cotton Club, although kind of legendary to us now, was a really complicated space. It didn't allow black patrons in. The black musicians and chorus people were not allowed to use the bathrooms.

403.497 - 419.58 Dr. Hannah Thuraisingam Robbins

They could only rehearse the final rehearsals in the building. It was quite a tense setup. But at the same time... a number of major artists like Cab Calloway, Ethel Waters, Louis Armstrong, Adelaide Hall, all working there. And Duke Ellington was crucial.

419.66 - 422.991 Desiree Burch

If you want to make a welcoming space for black people, you don't call it the cotton.

423.091 - 423.934 Dr. Hannah Thuraisingam Robbins

Well, there is that.

425.5 - 451.221 Dr. Hannah Thuraisingam Robbins

guessing it's not a vibe like hey come on down the cotton club yeah and was she working solely as a dancer was she singing at this point and dancing as well she's been there for a while so she began as a dancer but she was singing as well like the chorus was multifaceted and she certainly started to get spots during this time she stars in her first broadway musical called dance with your gods and she would go do that and then come back and perform at the cotton club

Chapter 4: What impact did Lena Horne have during World War II?

529.441 - 530.963 Desiree Burch

And she's like, you'll never catch me.

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531.424 - 536.17 Greg Jenner

She does an E.T. thing. Cycles away from the government.

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536.15 - 542.225 Desiree Burch

Just a scooter. Just her in her heels and a big dress like, I'm going to get out of here.

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542.305 - 546.515 Greg Jenner

She doesn't pick up a bike. She picks up a fare. Oh, okay.

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546.535 - 548.64 Desiree Burch

The original bike.

548.66 - 552.69 Greg Jenner

Hannah, who is her beloved hubby?

552.822 - 572.049 Dr. Hannah Thuraisingam Robbins

Yeah, in 1937, she runs away to Pittsburgh this time. And she marries this guy, Louis Jordan Jones, or Louis Jordan Jones, I think it is actually. And he is from a similar middle class, black background. He's the son of a minister. He's a college graduate. He's an aspiring politician. But their marriage is made challenging by the fact that Lena Horne continues to work.

572.73 - 578.318 Dr. Hannah Thuraisingam Robbins

And he was looking for a different kind of wife who was going to support his political aspirations rather than make her own money.

578.719 - 581.943 Greg Jenner

She moves to New York and that does go well, or at least that's the plan.

Chapter 5: How did Lena Horne's activism influence her career?

684.179 - 706.551 Dr. Hannah Thuraisingam Robbins

And in the end, it's MGM, the producer Roger Edens, who sees Horne and takes her seriously and decides to take her to meet Arthur Freed. Arthur Freed is the head of the division producing screen musicals. And they decide together, along with Vincent Minelli, who they bump into, who she already knows, that she should go and audition for L.B. Mayer, the second M in MGM.

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706.912 - 707.012 Greg Jenner

Yeah.

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706.992 - 731.575 Dr. Hannah Thuraisingam Robbins

And she decides to take her father, Edwin, who she's reconnected with at this point. It was a very surprising audition. LB Meyer is immediately taken with her. He can see the appeal. He immediately understands what Roger Edens, who is an associate producer, has recognised. But... they are not prepared for her and Edwin to come in and negotiate what she is and isn't going to do.

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732.055 - 753.997 Dr. Hannah Thuraisingam Robbins

So with his help, she says that they're not going to accept any old part. And he says that he could just hire Lena Horner, a maid with his own money. So she's not going to be playing servants on screen. They also negotiate that she won't play any illiterate or uneducated parts and she won't play any jungle or Tarzan stereotypes.

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754.017 - 759.524 Greg Jenner

Thank God. And she gets an extraordinary contract for a first time debutante, a seven year gig.

760.485 - 776.487 Dr. Hannah Thuraisingam Robbins

So she'd done a couple of independent black films at the end of the 30s, but you're basically those had not been widely distributed. They were not prominent movies. She had the appeal. I think that's the thing we can say. She had the appeal, but also they saw an opportunity to.

776.467 - 798.998 Dr. Hannah Thuraisingam Robbins

to represent a different kind of music within some of these film musicals that are made she gets in the end a seven year film contract which and she was the first black actor of any gender to get such a major deal this was that one year they were really doing dei at mgm and they just really knocked it out of the park and nobody else ever got that deal ever 1942 to 1943 yeah

799.67 - 810.28 Greg Jenner

The golden year. Yeah, the golden year. Oh my goodness. So Lena Horne's debut, MGM debut, is a film called Panama Hattie. Yeah. And she's playing herself?

810.3 - 825.608 Dr. Hannah Thuraisingam Robbins

Panama Hattie is an adaptation of a stage musical by Cole Porter. Yeah. And I think it's a really interesting insight into what MGM attempted to do with her. They deliberately immediately start to lean on the idea of her being slightly ethnically ambiguous.

Chapter 6: What were Lena Horne's notable films and performances?

906.37 - 926.198 Dr. Hannah Thuraisingam Robbins

And what happened there was they got the great and good of black performance into these films and created these amazing celebrations in those films. They are the only examples where Lena Horne has dialogue, where she gets to interact with other people. And she actually has character arcs.

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926.218 - 932.867 Dr. Hannah Thuraisingam Robbins

After that, she basically loses the opportunity to have a meaningful interaction with the plot of any musical film.

0

933.235 - 941.467 Greg Jenner

And you said when we did our preparatory Zoom call, you said something quite shocking. She would sometimes not be allowed to stand too close to fellow actors so they could physically cut her out of movies.

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942.008 - 944.191 Dr. Hannah Thuraisingam Robbins

Yes, that's an amazing sequence.

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944.211 - 947.756 Greg Jenner

Desiree, your eyes went very wide there.

947.776 - 952.283 Desiree Burch

Yeah, this is like before CGI. They were just literally like, we will just splice the film just in case.

952.363 - 962.297 Greg Jenner

They literally just had a sort of frame around her. The other thing I suppose we have to talk about in terms of racism or at least, you know, prejudice on set would be her hair and makeup. Desiree, do you know what...

962.277 - 967.806 Desiree Burch

I'm like, I know her hair and makeup was bad because it's not good now. So I can only imagine.

967.846 - 974.196 Greg Jenner

We mentioned it very early on. You may recall Light Egyptian. Oh, my goodness. Do you know what that might refer to?

Chapter 7: How did Lena Horne's marriage affect her career?

1119.417 - 1167.064 Unknown

Find a history of the United States in 100 Objects on the 99% visible feed wherever you get your podcasts. Jos mä saisin valita, maksasin vaan niistä keikoista, jonne mä pääsen. OP Gold kortin lipputurva on hyvä valinta. Se korvaa tapahtumaliput, jos sairastut. Hae korttia op.fi kautta gold. Kortin myöntää OP väittäisasiakkaat OJ. Lipputurvan myöntää Pohjola Vakuutus.

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1167.324 - 1170.889 Unknown

Lipputurva on voimassa, kun ostat liput OP Goldin kreditominaisuudella.

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1173.063 - 1185.061 Greg Jenner

of Unlucky in Love, Miss Horne does get married again. So I've got good news there. And hubby number two, is this someone Lena can lean on? Is he going to be a kind of loyal, loving hubby who lets her be the star?

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1185.582 - 1186.684 Dr. Hannah Thuraisingam Robbins

Certainly at the beginning, yes.

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1186.804 - 1187.425 Greg Jenner

Okay.

1187.685 - 1200.825 Dr. Hannah Thuraisingam Robbins

He is. Lena Horne marries the MGM arranger and conductor Lenny Hayton. Initially, they don't get on. She didn't trust white men, in her words, and he didn't trust singers. But eventually...

1200.805 - 1204.449 Greg Jenner

That's the best way that sentence could have ended because I was worried.

1204.469 - 1221.966 Dr. Hannah Thuraisingam Robbins

Yeah. Yeah. Could have framed that better. Never mind. They build this relationship together and eventually in 1947, they get married in Paris. But their partnership is extremely controversial in public and private because interracial marriage is still illegal in California.

1221.986 - 1225.53 Greg Jenner

So they're married in Paris simply because it's illegal in the place they live and work.

Chapter 8: What was Lena Horne's legacy and impact on future artists?

1293.078 - 1314.131 Dr. Hannah Thuraisingam Robbins

Yeah. So Lena Horne is named in Red Channels as a communist. And that's basically the end of her time at MGM for a number of years. She goes to Europe, as you say. Ultimately, I think the civil rights movement is a turning point in her life. And she... meets Martin Luther King earlier in that process, who asks her to sing at a rally.

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1314.252 - 1329.544 Dr. Hannah Thuraisingam Robbins

And through that, she becomes involved in fundraising for him, fundraising for the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. She works with Eleanor Roosevelt on anti-lynching legislation. She attends the March on Washington with Josephine Baker. There's a beautiful photo of them standing in front of the monument.

0

1329.564 - 1329.784 Unknown

Oh, nice.

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1329.764 - 1341.098 Dr. Hannah Thuraisingam Robbins

And this is kind of the beginning of her being very prominently vocal about political activism. In the 1970s, she speaks out for black women radicals like Angela Davis when she's incarcerated.

0

1342.179 - 1355.755 Dr. Hannah Thuraisingam Robbins

But I think it's also worth saying that through the 40s, she had been supporting radical politicians, helping with union fundraisers and thinking about the ways in which black political organising could function. And then in civil rights, she came to understand that

1355.735 - 1369.292 Dr. Hannah Thuraisingam Robbins

the way she'd been used as a figurehead or an aspirational symbol of blackness was actually really negatively loaded and started to talk publicly about that and kind of relearn her black radical consciousness, I guess.

1370.033 - 1381.827 Greg Jenner

The sort of stormy weather that she'd sung about in 43, unfortunately, stormy weather came for her in 1970, 71. She had a sort of a really tragic 18 months or so, which she lost a lot of people she loved.

1382.043 - 1390.855 Dr. Hannah Thuraisingam Robbins

Yeah. So by this point, she and Lenny have separated because she was just less interested in her music career and more involved in political activism.

1391.136 - 1403.011 Desiree Burch

No idea what Lenny did or what he was like. He was just a white man she didn't trust. But then she did enough to marry him. He gave her a career in Europe and then he dipped. He was just like, I'm a plot device, bye!

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