Greg Jenner

Ho, ho, ho! Hello, friends. Greg here. I hope you're having a lovely Christmas season and a great new year is on the horizon for you. I just thought I'd pop in here to remind you of our lovely Christmas specials from the back catalogue. We've got three, of course, to enjoy. If you scroll down in the feed, the first one you'll find is the radio edit of Christmas with Charles Dickens.

A bit further down, you'll find the full-length podcast version. Our guests there were Dr Emily Bell and, of course, Mike Wozniak. It's a lovely one.

An elephant walking on ice, Mike. Imagine the insurance forms you have to fill in for that. The health and safety risk assessment. They must have had a moment where they thought this is probably not going to be worth it. Surely, lads, come on.

And if you keep scrolling, or if you just want to type things into the search box, if that's easier for you, you will find both long and short versions of our medieval Christmas episode with Miles Jupp and Dr. Eleanor Janager.

Wow. Miles, could you go to February 2nd? Can you commit to that kind of level of engagement with Christmas spirit?

And even further back in the feed, in fact, all the way back to the end of series one, you will find our very first Christmas special, which was about the Victorian Christmas with Dr Fern Riddell and Russell Kane. Again, available in both long, lovely pod form and shorter radio edit.

Now, that's the one to listen to if you want to know why on earth we celebrate Christmas with cars, crackers and dragging a tree inside our house, which when you think about it, it's quite a weird thing to do. And if all of that doesn't keep you going until 2025, you might like to tuck into our episode about the history of chocolate while you polish off your Christmas selection box. Delicious.

Oh, and finally, I'm delighted to tell you that we are back for a brand new series in the new year. New episodes will be released on Fridays wherever you get your podcasts. But if you're in the UK, you can listen to the latest episodes 28 days earlier today.

than anywhere else first on BBC Sounds so just a big warm lovely festive hug to you all I hope to see you in the new year for a brand new series lots of new jokes lots of new facts great guests take care thank you bye

We didn't call Celia the bob-haired bandit. We called Celia Grandma.

Bring that back. Bring it back. The Hedgehog Clock. Perfect. In 348, a big thing happens to him. The death of Plato, 348 BCE. His tutor, his great intellectual figurehead dies. And again, the idyllic life comes crashing down around him. And you might assume that he gets the gig, teaching at the academy, takes over running the school.

Well, you've clearly deduced what happened because he doesn't get the job that he's expecting. The rivals sort of step in and muscle him out and it's a guy called Spew Sippers. Yeah, which means enthusiast for horses. LAUGHTER

So he doesn't get the gig and he instead, he gets an invitation to go to a new place. He does. And this place is called Assos.

OK, we'll get into that later. And in Comedy Corner, he's a writer, comedian, presenter, producer and podcaster. He's a polymath. Maybe you've listened to his incredible podcasts. No such thing as a fish. And his new show, We Can Be Weirdos, or his new kids' book, Impossible Things.

Which sounds very progressive and modern, doesn't it? So he heads off to Assos. I spent most of my 30s on Assos too, but I was mostly trying to buy skinny jeans. Right.

That's appropriate wit, everyone. I bet there was an equivalent joke. So Assos, he goes there and he finds love. He does.

Anyway, he marries her and it seems to have been very happy. And they have a daughter together, also called Pythias, because Aristotle apparently, you know, he's run out of names. He's like, well, you know, I've met one.

Oh, really?

Oh, okay.

It's only lasted a couple of years. Okay, so he's raising the baby on his own. Apparently. Ah, it's suddenly taken a turn, isn't it?

Okay, so he's got some help. He's got a constitution, right? Yes, he has. But they move to the Isle of Lesbos. They do. Which is not far from Assos. And we've got this single dad with his little girl. What do you think they get up to on Lesbos? What do you think Aristotle's going to do? I'm not going to take the bait, buddy. Nice try.

And you'll definitely remember him from our episode of You're Dead to Me all the way back in Series 1 on young Napoleon. It's Dan Schreiber. Welcome back, Dan.

He's not desperately trying to get his job back.

And so when he's there, he describes 500 species of animal. He's looking at plants as well.

And extinction as an idea isn't really rediscovered until the 18th century.

Yeah.

You think he's got a wristwatch? You think it is?

I knew you'd make it weird. I didn't think it would be this far in.

No, but you're right. He's extraordinary in every way. And he's not flawless, and we'll talk about some of his flaws later, but I think he's one of the most interesting people in history. So on Lesbos, he is raising his little daughter. It's almost like two men and a little baby. It's like these two brilliant scientists and a little girl. It's like a really charming rom-com.

So last time out, Dan, we had you back in 18th century France and Corsica, and we were following the travails of a young man called Napoleone. Yes. How do you feel about ancient Greece? Is this a comfort area for you?

Now it feels like a novel. Now it feels more like literary fiction. So he describes 500 species at least. He writes, I think, 10 books on animals, as well as many other things. Theophrastus is writing about plants and they're sort of chatting and comparing notes. So Sappho had been a couple of centuries before. She'd written lyric poetry. Aristotle then invented zoology.

So Lesbos, they're both writing about the birds and the bees, but in totally different ways. It's really nice, isn't it? It's like this amazing sort of place. But sticking with Aristotle's scientific work, he gets things wrong. Mini quiz for you, Dan. Here are five myths that were believed in the ancient world. Aristotle believed four of them. Which of them did he disprove?

Number one, women have fewer teeth than men. Number two, eels do not reproduce. They spontaneously generate teeth. Three, elephants cannot bend their knees. Four, the Earth is the centre of the universe. And five, a heavier object falls faster than a lighter one. Which of those did Aristotle disprove? I...

Another good novel, Elephants on Lesbos. Yeah. Yeah, remember, he's getting information from other people as well. Later.

Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, well done. I mean, process deduction, I guess, because he's interested in animals. But yeah, he disproves that one. He believes the other four. I very much doubt if Aristotle had ever seen an elephant.

Because he did anatomy, didn't he? He did dissection. He also did dissection.

Yeah, he looks at flies. He really was interested in crustaceans, wasn't he? Crabs, cuttlefish, lobsters, fish. So your podcast is called No Such Thing as a Fish. Yes. He would have had such an argument with you about that. He really would. But he would have loved to hear why you thought that. Because he spent ages trying to work out what is a fish, what isn't a fish. Is lobster a fish?

Are they mammals?

Right. He argued against other philosophers using dichotomy, didn't he? He said that they're too simple in going things with wings, things without wings. He's like, no, no, no, it's way more complex. He invented the spreadsheet, mate.

He's on Lesbos. He's doing all this. He's having a great time. He's written stuff. And then suddenly he gets a job offer. Oh, dear. From a man called Philip of Macedon, who's in the king business. And Philip says, I've got a kid over here, a bit of a brat. Could you teach him? And the kid's name is...

The brat. So he's the heir to the throne. He's the son of Philip's fourth wife, Olympias. Complicated court politics, murder, poison, intrigue. Absolutely. You never know you're going to survive through adulthood. And Aristotle gets the gig and he decides to go. Why? Why?

So you think he's a threat.

So, Dan, what would your curriculum be if you were going to have to educate a sort of tyrant's child?

13, 14.

All right, that brings us to the first segment of the podcast. This is the So What Do You Know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And Aristotle is one of the most famous Western philosophers of all time. He's one of the most famous names in all of history. Maybe you're picturing a beardy guy in a robe.

Yeah.

It's very Joffrey, Game of Thrones sort of risk, isn't it? It's sort of like slightly a psychopathic teenager.

Aristotle doesn't want to raise someone dangerous.

Prepare for the workplace. Yeah. Because Alexander is told you don't have to be a philosopher, but please do listen to the philosophers. Which feels like a compromise. Like, OK, all right, you're not going to be a philosopher, I get it, but can you at least listen to them?

So rhetoric is speech-making.

Yes.

Yeah.

So it's aged 48 that we get Aristotle returning to Athens. And he's lived life by this point. He has written a new constitution. He's fallen in love. He's become a new dad. He's been widowed. He's invented zoology. He's invented marine biology. He's tutored a trust fund brat and survived the most dangerous blaze in the world. And he's gone back home to Athens.

You'd think to take up his job at the academy, but he doesn't, right? He ends up opening a rival school, which I don't know if that's petty. No, it's not petty. He just wanted to run his own show.

Maybe he's lecturing a bottle-blonde Alexander the Great because you've seen the movie Alexander where all the Macedonians were Irish for some strange reason. Perhaps you've encountered Aristotelian ethics through the wonderful sitcom The Good Place. You may have seen Aristotelian quotes all over Facebook and Instagram. He's very quotable.

Yes. So the Lyceum is arguably the first teaching university. The academy is a philosophy class. But this has got a library. This feels like it's something different. It is something different.

Thank you.

But who was this philosopher who changed intellectual life in the West forever? How did he get to be so brainy and so important? And what do you do when a king orders you to tutor his frat boy son? Let's find out. Right, Professor Edith, let's start at the beginning. Where and when was Aristotle born? What was his family situation like?

Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Yeah. And so what is... What does that mean? It actually means victory in battle. Yeah, because Nike is the goddess of victory. That's the one. And Marcus means war? Fight. Fight. Die. So a GP who's actually pretty hardcore.

63. But when we did the Pythagoras episode, you were able to sort of knock down quite a few myths, but there was still an awful lot of stuff that we really struggled to get to grips with. Yeah, yeah. Here, we've just got so much...

And we've only got 31 books out of 160. Maybe one day others will show up somewhere.

I would get History of Animals. I would too. I read it this weekend. It's brilliant.

Yeah.

All right, time now for the Nuance Window. This is where Dan and I peripatetically promenade around the Lyceum for two minutes while Professor Edith tells us something that we need to know about Aristotle. My stopwatch is ready. You have two minutes, Edith. Take it away.

intellectual history and then we end up with a bum joke that's what should be in his poetics about comedy right yeah

Yeah.

So what do you know now? Time now for the So What Do You Know Now? This is our quickfire quiz for Dan to see how much he has learned. We are fired. So much. I forgot about this. Last time out, Dan, you got 9.5 on Napoleon out of 10, which is really good. I mean, really good score.

I'm going to predict three. Let's aim higher than that. Question one. What was the name of the independent Greek state where Aristotle was born? Pass. I have no idea. Do you remember the nickname for it?

Was it the admirer, enthusiast of horses? No. The staggering, the dripping place.

So that was his hometown. Question two. Which god did a later writer claim Aristotle was descended from? The god of which type of discipline? No, that's gone as well. Asclepius, god of medicine. Okay, question three. Plato had two nicknames for his clever Aristotle student. Can you name one of them? The brain and the walking library. Oh, very good. Well done. Question four.

Which scientific field did Aristotle basically invent at the lagoon of Lesbos? Marine biology. It was, yeah. Question five. What name was shared by Aristotle's wife and daughter? Pissy office? Pythias. Yeah, Pythias. Very good. Pythias is correct. Yes, the snake lady. Question six. Why didn't Aristotle take over running the Athenian Academy when Plato died?

Yeah.

It's Bucipus, wasn't it? Question seven. Which famous prince did Aristotle tutor?

The brat, Alexander the brat. Question eight. Aristotle's book, The Nagamekian Ethics, was dedicated to his son. Simply put, what philosophy does it profess?

Yeah, perfect. Was that it? Yeah, that's it. Question nine. Aristotle was 48 years old when he returned to Athens to found which pioneering school with an outreach programme and public lectures? It was called the Lyceum. It was. Very good. Question ten. Can you name one of the provisions in Aristotle's will? That all of his slaves would be free. That's right. Yeah, absolutely.

And he also left all his stuff to Theophrastus and his furnishings to Herpilus. Eight out of ten, Dan Schreiber. Wow. You started slightly wobbly and then you got stronger. It was really worrying at the beginning, wasn't it? And then, yeah, confidence took over. Staggerer was hard to remember. That was a tricky question. Well, I mean, we've had a really interesting chat.

Are you kind of like on board with Aristotle? Because I think we're both team Aristotle over here.

Well, thank you so much, Dan. Thank you, Edith. And listener, for more applied philosophy, check out Edith's previous episode on Pythagoras, which was an absolute hoot. We also did an episode on medieval science. And if you want more Dan in your ears, you can scroll all the way down in the app back to 2019 to the Young Napoleon episode with Dr. Laura O'Brien. It's a really fun one.

And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please leave a review, share the show with your friends, subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sound so you never miss an episode. But I'd just like to say a huge thank you again to our guests. In History Corner from the University of Durham, we had the fantastic Professor Edith Hall. Thank you, Edith. Thank you.

And in Comedy Corner, we had the brilliant Dan Schreiber. Thank you, Dan. Thanks, Greg. To you, lovely listener, join me next time as we return to the classroom for another lesson from the past. But for now, I'm off to go and rewrite Aristotle's lost volume on comedy. I think it's mostly to do with bums. I mean, how hard can it be? Bye!

This episode of You're Dead to Me was researched by Madeleine Bracey. It was written by Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, Emma Neguse and me. The audio producer was Steve Hankey and our production coordinator was Ben Holland. It was produced by Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, me and senior producer Emma Neguse and our executive editor was James Cook.

You're Dead to Me is a BBC Studios audio production for BBC Radio 4.

So at 13, his sister takes him in. He goes to sort of live with his uncle. Well, it's his brother-in-law. His brother-in-law, sorry. His older brother-in-law. Right. And they're in Turkey. They're in northwest Turkey. So the Greek world as we know it isn't just Athens and Sparta.

You're about to listen to You're Dead to Me. Episodes will be released on Fridays, wherever you get your podcasts. But if you are in the UK, you can listen to the latest episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else. First, on BBC Sounds. Hello, and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner.

So at 13, he lives through tragedy. His parents die. He goes to live with his sister. He's a young man. What do you think he does with his time at 13, 14?

So you sort of had to keep them out of... We'll get to that later, actually.

Yeah, okay, right. So put a pin in that one, come back to me. So yeah, you've gone for sports, and I think that's sort of spot on. The other thing that's interesting about him is supposedly he tries his hand at war and fails. So his dad's had the good warfare name.

Intellectual things.

What's interesting about Aristotle, he doesn't have a kind of rebellious bad boy phase. He's not wearing a leather jacket with his tunic. Okay. It's not really a good look anyway, but, you know, he's not doing that. Instead, he's absolutely excelling everywhere. And so his brother-in-law and his sister spot the talent and go, this kid needs proper training, right? Absolutely.

You say fed up. I think they're going, this kid, he should go places.

I'm a public historian, author, and broadcaster, and today we are dusting off our philosophy textbooks and going back nearly 2,400 years to ancient Greece to learn all about one of history's greatest beardy chin-strokers, Aristotle. And to help us tell our virtue ethics from our empiricism, we have one top-notch teacher and one very eager pupil.

But why is Socrates? So Aristotle rocks up to Plato's Academy in Athens. At 17. Or rather, he's a good boy, so he queues up politely and waits to be let in. But he arrives. He's there. He's going to learn from this superstar philosopher. And Plato had been taught by Socrates. So you're learning from the guy who learned from Socrates.

It's pretty good.

Not as big a name as the other three. So Plato has a couple of nicknames for Aristotle, his new student. Do you want to guess what they are?

Right, okay. Oh, so he's young Sheldon almost. He's like a sort of teenage sensation. So the nicknames we've got, I think, are The Walking Library.

Which is quite nice. And just The Brain.

And he studies a variety of things at the academy, right? So it's not just philosophy, it's astronomy, natural science.

In History Corner, she's Professor of Classics at Durham University and a Fellow of the British Academy. You might have heard her on Radio 4's Natalie Haynes stand-up for the classics or Radio 4's Great Lives. Maybe you've read one of her many books, including Aristotle's Way, How Ancient Wisdom Can Change Your Life, and her most recent book, Facing Down the Furies.

So he's the ultimate postgrad because he comes at 17 and he is there 20 years and he's studying stuff he's meant to be studying and he's studying bonus courses. So he writes about lyric poetry. He writes about drama, which is obviously theatre with masks and tragedy, right? You know, sort of Medea and things like that. He writes about epic, which I guess is the Iliad, the Odyssey. Yeah.

He writes about comedy, but we don't have it, which is devastating to me because you and I both love comedy. We don't have his book on comedy.

And you'll know her from our episode on Mr Triangle himself, Pythagoras. It's Professor Edith Hall. Welcome back, Edith.

Who's the headline act? Is it Frederick Douglass or is it Sojourner Truth?

I mean, it's fascinating, isn't it? Because we can lift both of these up as heroes and as pioneers. But actually, there's a sort of fractious relationship there. So Jenna Truth does copy one of Douglas's better ideas, i.e. a book. He writes a sort of very, very famous book, sells quite a lot of copies, 4,500. And six months later, Jenna Truth sort of announces that she's going to do a book.

And you'll know her from this very podcast from many, many episodes, including recent highlights, Pythagoras, What a Dude, and the history of Broadway musicals. It's your Dead to Me superstar, Desiree Burch. Welcome back, Desiree. Thank you so much. That's right. You and Michelle have previously covered Harriet Tubman and Josephine Baker.

What's her book called, Michelle?

Yeah, put it on the front cover. You must buy this book. It's very important.

So in the 1850s, with the book out, Sojourner Truth went on a book tour. Is she famous by this point? Is she renowned? Are people flocking to go and see her talk?

So she's funny, Desiree, and she's 5'11". She's got this deep, strong voice.

Now, I think we have to get to the most important speech that she is said to have given, which is, of course, the entire woman's speech, Michelle. And this is an iconic speech. Does she say that? What do we know about the speech? Can you give us a potted history of it?

Now, Harriet Tubman, obviously an abolitionist, a very famous woman in American history. What are your emotions when you hear the word Sojourner Truth?

We'll talk more about it in the nuance window, I know, Michelle. But the thing that follows the speech soon after is the American Civil War. What did Sojourner Truth do in the Civil War?

She met three presidents in her life, Desiree. She met Abraham Lincoln, but she also met Andrew Johnson and then Ulysses S. Grant as well. So she's, you know, she's moving in high circles. How do you think the meeting went with Abe Lincoln, Desiree? Well, have you ever...

Michelle, I don't think we know how it went necessarily, but we get a sense perhaps that the person she was with felt that he was rude to her.

But after the war, was she an important part of the conversations in the rebuilding of America, Michelle? Did Sojourner Truth get her due after the crisis had ended?

And so the end of her life, I mean, she's already elderly in her 70s. She lived into her 80s. But at the end of her life, how did her life end?

The Nuance Window! Time now for The Nuance Window. This is where Desiree and I listen in rapturous silence for two minutes while Dr Michelle preaches to us about something we need to know about Sojourner Truth. So my stopwatch is ready. Please take it away, Dr Michelle.

Biopic for me, but yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Thank you so much, Michelle. Desiree?

That's amazing. Listener, if you want more from Desiree and Michelle, check out our episodes on Harriet Tubman and Josephine Baker, both extraordinary women. And for more abolitionist history, why not listen to our episode on Frederick Douglass? And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we follow in the footsteps of another forgotten firebrand.

I'm biopic. I can't see out of my left eye. Yeah, I don't know.

But for now, I'm off to go and grow my beard, cover myself in gold and convince my neighbours that I am Jesus Christ. Hello! Bye!

So, what do you know? This is the So What Do You Know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And I think American listeners are going to immediately have a Desiree response of, I know stuff! Hang on, do I know stuff? Do I know anything? Outside of the state, I think probably less familiar name.

She's perhaps most famous for the quote, Ain't I a Woman, which has been used by feminist activists for years, including by bell hooks. for her debut book title. But there are no big movie biopics. Biopics, whatever we're calling it. There are no big TV dramas. If you go on IMDb, you're not getting much back, which is quite surprising. So what was Sojourner's journey?

How did she go from enslavement to crusading campaigner? And was Ain't I a Woman even her line? Let's find out. Right, Dr. Michelle, we'll start at the beginning. When and where was Sojourner Truth born? I'm presuming that wasn't her name at birth.

Desiree, do you know what language Isabella grew up speaking?

Dutch is her primary first language. She's one of 12 or 10. So the parents have been enslaved, the children are enslaved, and the person who enslaves them is Colonel Johannes Hardenberg. And you said he's wealthy. What happened when he died?

It's a horrible, horrible childhood. And she was sold to an English speaking family, the Neelys. And she didn't she didn't speak English.

And then in 1810, Isabella was sold again for $175. Who is she sold to this time?

We get a marriage for Isabella. Who is she married to? And is it her choice? How does this work?

In 1826, Desiree, something important happens in Isabella's life, in many lives, actually. Do you want to guess what it is? Or maybe you know what it is. 1826 in New York's history.

Yeah. I mean, I love the way you figured that out. Bang on. Michelle, 4th of July, 1827, which then comes into act in 28.

4th of July is a good date to do things.

Yeah. Michelle, the state of New York abolishes slavery or what is the definition?

Official Cornell degree for you, Desiree.

Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner and I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are strapping on our sturdiest walking boots and hiking across America to learn about renowned 19th century abolitionist, orator and civil rights activist Sojourner Truth.

So Isabella takes things into her own hands and she goes on the run. Does she take any of her kids with her?

She's got her daughter Sophia with her, and then she hears that her son Peter has been taken because her husband Thomas has died, Michelle. Peter had been still in enslavement, owned by the Dumonts, and John Dumont had decided to sell him to a slave owner in Alabama. And this is hugely upsetting, and she does something extraordinary, Michelle. Can you tell us what she does in 1828?

The amazing thing really now is that Isabella is free. She goes off to New York and she now goes to work for white families, but wealthy families as a free woman. One family is called the Latourettes, and they're very religious, aren't they?

And to help us, we have two very special guests. in History Corner. She's an assistant professor in African-American history at Cornell University. Her research focuses on black and indigenous histories, including the history of racial formation and identity in America. And you might remember her from our previous episodes of this show about Harriet Tubman and Josephine Baker.

Yeah. Just be like, oh, my wife said, well, it's time to crack it out. Boom. But then she finds someone even more interesting. Someone comes to her door calling himself the prophet Matthias. Desiree, who do you think he claimed to be? I'll give you a clue. He's wearing gold robes. He's got a fancy beard when he shows up at her door.

Michelle, was Isabella convinced by this gold-dressed man, or did she wholly ghost him?

And Isabella is trying to preach, Michelle, but is not allowed to preach in this cult, so that's not ideal.

The commune collapses in 1834, Desiree, so only a year later. But Isabella stays loyal to Matthias. She lends him money. She gets him a lawyer.

Even his own wife hadn't joined the commune, but Isabella is still team Matthias. It's a bit of a red flag, isn't it, when the wife won't join? Well,

It's Dr. Michelle Crestfield. Welcome back, Michelle.

The end. Important thing to say here, Michelle, I think, is that after the collapse of the commune, Sojourner Truth emerges as an identity.

It is. We're sort of series one reunion in some ways. It's lovely. And in Comedy Corner, she needs no introduction. She's a comedian, actor, and writer. You'll have seen her all over the TV on Taskmaster, Frankie Boyle's New World Order, The Horn Section TV show, and Too Hot to Handle.

She's now Sojourner Truth, and soon she was living in another commune, Desiree. Such a hippie.

Loves a guy in a beard and robes. But this one's less problematic, Michelle. This is the Northampton Association for Education and Industry, which sounds like a kind of local government thing. What is this commune?

And Desiree, this is where she meets another very famous American abolitionist. Do you want to guess who? Can it please be Harriet Tubman? Because she's on the Underground Railroad.

Yeah, well done. Yeah, very good. Okay. And Frederick Douglass, we've done an episode on it. Listeners, if you want to check that out, it's a really good one. Douglass is a renowned orator. He's a brilliant speaker and incredibly articulate. You might assume that Douglass and Sojourner Truth get on really well, but there's sort of tension, Michelle.

The following year, the community received its official papal permission to become a closed community, Sophie. Benedetta starts living her best life with her BFF, Spot Lamea, and of course, Splenditello the angel. Splenditello.

But that official stamp of authority then means presumably the church is then looking more closely at what's happening because suddenly the church authorities show up and go, hang on a second. What? There's a woman preaching, claiming mystic visions. We'd better check this out because we now get an official process of interrogation, Michelle.

Oh, so the fear here is that she is being visited by Satan, not by an angel. Yes. Gotcha. Okay. So we get the provost of Pescia, Stefano Cecchi, sort of showing up to physically examine the stigmata, the wounds, starts asking questions, Sophie. It's becoming a bit official. What do you think Bartolomeo does, Sophie, the sort of best friend who's been appointed?

And Bartolomea says that she had to put the heart back in.

Sophie, have you ever done that for a friend? Have you ever? Have I ever pushed a heart back in?

Okay, so Benedetta has a very loyal friend here, and Bartolomeo is going on the record saying, yes, the heart came out, I saw it, I put it back in. So that means Benedetta passes the first interrogation, the first investigation, but there will be another, because obviously we said that woman of ill repute is a phrase that gets used.

Why does she pass the first test, but a second one is launched, Michelle? What does she do, Benedetta, that's more provocative or claimed to do?

That's all it needs, right? That's all you need. You just need someone. You just need a man to say, get up, come on, sort it out.

Not dead. Let's talk about the second investigation because this time around, Sophie, it's not the local authorities who are sort of showing up to have an interrogation. The Pope has sent someone. The Pope! Mr. Pope himself. He sent a nuncio, which is an official figure, a sort of a bunch of officials showing up in 1622. They're there for several months. They're outsiders, right?

They're not used to the community. They're not used to her. So they're a bit more interrogative. It doesn't go so well this time, Sophie. They're suspicious.

And they find satanic signs around the general locale of the nunnery. Michelle, what is the evidence gathered against Benedetta?

So, Michelle, is this... I'm slightly worried where we're going next, but are we going next into sort of, you know, demonic territory of, you know, naughty things?

Sophie's back on board.

More than that, Sophie, Benedetta is claiming that the angel Splenditello is making them do it.

Uh-oh. Yeah. Uh-oh. Wow.

So, Michelle, I think the question we have to ask at this point now is, you know, we can all have a laugh about these sort of things, but actually what's quite interesting is there is a sort of moment in that testimony where Bartholomew sort of says she was sort of made to lie on her back, and that brings up ideas perhaps of coercion, perhaps of one person having more power than the other,

So is this a standard typical lesbian relationship between two consenting women, or do we have something more problematic here?

Yeah, it's definitely a problematic relationship, but it's also problematic for us because it comes to us through the official testimony of nuncio papal legates. It's slightly refracted through. So the phrasing that is used in the official interrogation is called the immodest act. So what is the outcome of this investigation, Michelle, the second investigation from the Pope's man?

Oh, Sophie. That's a bit of a vibe shift on the episode there, isn't it?

Time now for the nuance window. This is the part of the show where Sophie and I set down our needles and sit in silent contemplation for two minutes while Professor Michelle takes to the pulpit to preach something that we need to know about Benedetta Carlini. So my stopwatch is ready. You have two minutes. Take it away, Professor Michelle.

Thank you, Sophie. Thank you, Professor Michelle. Listener, if after today's episode you want more dukkah in your ears, check out our episodes on Atlantis, Ramsey's The Great, Ashanti Garner and the Chevalier de Saint-Georges. What about catalogue? And if you've enjoyed hearing about the Naughty Nun, why not listen to our episode on the profane popes of the early medieval papacy?

Those guys were, they were extra. Let's just put it that way. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please leave a review, share the show with your friends, subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sound so you never miss an episode. But all that's left for me to do is say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner.

We had the magnificent Professor Michelle Sauer from the University of North Dakota. Thank you, Michelle.

And in Comedy Corner, we had the sublime Sophie Duker. Thank you, Sophie.

Thank you very much. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we investigate more historical friendships, in inverted commas. But for now, I'm off to go and offer Satan some of my salami. Bye!

Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are whipping out our wimples and reciting our rosaries as we learn all about the scandalous 17th century nun Benedetta Carlini. And to help us, we have two very special guests.

In History Corner, she's the Chester Fritz Distinguished Professor in English at the University of North Dakota. She's a specialist in medieval studies, especially medieval religion, women's literature and queer theory. And she's the author of several books. It's Professor Michelle Sauer. Welcome, Michelle.

Yes, you're very lucky. Sophie's very special. And in Comedy Corner, she is an award-winning comedian, writer and actor, as well as her fabulous stand-up shows. You'll recognise her from TV's 8 Out of 10 Cats Does Countdown, Live at the Apollo, Frankie Boyle's New World Order, but of course you'll remember her from our back catalogue, including episodes on Atlantis and Ramsey's The Great.

It's Sophie Duker. Welcome back, Sophie. Hey!

No, no. It was meant to be positive.

What about Benedetta Carlini? Is this a name that rings any bells?

You didn't say that.

It's fine. It's a fantastic insight into your mind there. Yeah, I think sexy nun is probably about fair, but we'll see. So what do you know? This is the So What Do You Know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject.

And you are probably familiar with Nun Life, you know, from totally true documentaries like Sister Act and The Sound of Music. But you might be less familiar with a small mountain girl called Benedetta Carlini who rose to notoriety in 17th century Italy and then vanished from history until being rediscovered quite recently.

But who was the real woman who, in quotes, pretended to be a mystic but was found to be a woman of ill repute? Professor Michelle, let's start with her family background. Who was Benedetta? Where was she born? When was she born? What was her family situation please?

Sophie, I know you speak French. I want to test your Italian now. Do you know what Benedetta translates to in English?

Bang on.

Okay, so yes, blessed, Michelle. Blessed, why blessed? What was the naming reason for that?

What age does she start to sort of become none adjacent, Michelle?

That's very Disney princess to have a bird on your shoulder singing along.

I mean, they exist. Okay, so Nightingale good. Any bad animal appearances?

I'm enjoying this. This is fun. Okay, so Sophie, how old do you think the Benedetta was when she was first entering the convent?

That's a good guess. It's a little bit generous. It was nine.

So what's the name of the community that Benedetta joined, Michelle?

Yeah, they've gone to venture capitalists.

OK, but what else is going on in the convent, do you think, Sophie? If we are imagining Benedetta as a modern influencer living her hashtag nun life, what kind of content are you expecting on the Gramm?

Doing unboxing videos.

Michelle, Sophie's painted quite a charming image there. Nun life was quite hard.

We have a young nun, Benedetta. Her life is sort of on track to be fairly conventional. And then at 23, it changes, Michelle. Why 23?

Another vision, Michelle, involves quite a sort of Eden-esque vibe.

And she's also mountain climbing. So it is the sound of music. She's climbing every mountain. She's following every stream. She's following her rainbow. She's going to find her dream. That's beautiful.

It's all very PG friendly so far, but then Benedetta's visions got quite heavy metal, Sophie. We've got quite a quick mini quiz for you, actually. Which of these visions did Benedetta not claim to have experienced? So five options. Here we go. One, she was pursued by handsome young men in iron chains with weapons. Two, Jesus ripped out her heart and she lived without a heart for three days.

Three, an angel in a white robe, gold chain, long curly hair named Splenditello brought her a double-edged wand made of flowers and thorns. Four, she married Jesus. Five, an angel told her to go vegan. Which of those is not true?

OK, you're rejecting Splenditello and his lovely curly hair. I think he's modelled on you, Greg. I would love to be Splenditello. I don't have the looks to pull it off. I've got the curly hair and nothing else. It's actually a trick question, Sophie. All five are true.

Sorry. That's that's us being very mean there. But we thought maybe it would be fun to see if you could tell them apart. But no. Yeah, she claims all five. So she claims her heart's ripped out for three days. She claims to be going vegan, marrying Jesus. Splenditello comes to her, offers her a double wand of flowers and thorns and pursued by young men who attack her with weapons and chains.

So quite a quite an array of visions here. Yeah. Michelle, Benedetta also started to have the physical signs of holy interactions, what we might call stigmata.

These are huge claims to be making. I suppose the obvious question is, were there others in the convent reporting similar things, Michelle? Is she alone in this?

So Benedetta's having these pretty powerful physical and visual visitations and visions. How do you think her fellow nuns were handling that at the dinner table?

The thing that's intriguing to me, Michelle, is the community sort of give Benedetta a kind of friend to play with almost. It's a bit like, all right, look, you need someone to keep you company. And they give you a young woman called Bartolomea Crivelli. Is that right?

Her buddy Bartolomea. And Benedetta now sort of steps it up. She starts preaching from the pulpit, which is a big no-no, isn't it? That's a man's job, right? Huge no-no. Okay. And then in 1619, the other nuns elect her the abbess of the nunnery, Michelle. So then she's not unpopular. She's not unpopular at all.

This is 1610, the Hudson attempts this overwintering. It doesn't go well. There are, I think, saying tensions on the ship is underselling it.

Gotcha.

Sorry. Abacut Prickett.

Listen, as the owner of a really nice coat, I get it. And the upshot is that Henry Hudson is left to die.

And they're never seen again. No, I mean, fair play to him for trying. But in fairness, Stu, it's quite embarrassing that the kind of moment of your death is encapsulated in they name it after you. Like there's a sort of awkwardness there.

Much like his crew, we have to leave Hudson behind. Sorry, Hudson.

Thank you.

Various other explorers kept venturing into these very dangerous waters. Can you chart us a course through these next two centuries of attempts? What are the highlights or lowlights?

Because they've heard about Jens Munch, presumably.

And so fur is important because it's the warm clothing, right? It's a fabric of desirability. Is it luxurious or is it just practical?

Lovely to have you back, Stu. Thank you. I'm clearly giddy with glee today. I know you're interested in climate change as an area of policy and discourse, but also comedy, right? Yes, for sure.

And then you'd think people would quit looking for the Northwest Passage because we've had several disasters. But they sort of have another crack. You've got Samuel Hearn in 1770, another fur trader. He tries to locate the Northwest Passage by doing something a bit different. Do you want to guess what he tries doing, Stu? And he finds the Northwest Passage. He's looking for it.

Wow, he's thought, hey, if it's a passage that's got edges, I'll find them. Yeah, he walks it. He's basically going to get his 10,000 steps in and then some. Whoa, for charity? Yes, he's going from the Hudson Bay all the way up to the Arctic. It's a huge amount of territory he's traversing with a team, presumably, with assistance. I mean, he's not just a one man on his own, is he?

Can we not? Yeah, I mean, we should also mention James Knight in 1715. I mean, do you want to talk us through his... Well, he was an ex-Hudson's Bay Company employee.

Oh, really? Wow. They proper sunk. They sunk. Yeah, that's a proper failed mission, isn't it? When your boat is underwater, you're like, OK, we might have to call this one, lads. And we found them in the 90s.

Yes. Were they lost or was this the pan all along?

Okay, next on the list is Your Dead to Me's previous subject, Captain James Cook. Okay. You must know the name, presumably, Stuart? Of course I've heard of Captain Cook. Yes? Good. Captain James T. Cook. Yes, and his Starship Enterprise. No, no, no, that's something I'm getting off topic. Yeah. He's going the other way. He's trying to do the Northwest Passage from the Pacific.

So he's looking for the back door in, which is interesting. Does that work for him? No.

Yes.

Great name. He does...

So 1779, Cook dies. George Vancouver says, this is just not going to happen. We've got to stop trying this. No one gets the memo because on go the next explorations. So Cook dies, you know, he gets into a big fight with the indigenous peoples and angers them and they kill him. So that's sort of the end of that one. But then we get Sir John Barrow and he's got a plan.

Wait for all these ships, and now they're just sitting idle.

Pretty close to 1880. I think that's in the ballpark, isn't it? We have a kind of post-Napoleonic change of... of purpose for the Royal Navy, which means now the Navy is no longer private companies. It's now the Navy, the Admiralty. And so Barrow, he's off for his expeditions in 1818, and do they succeed?

Right, good. Ditto. I'm getting a lot of ditto on it. It's a lot of like, we found some ice, we went home.

I failed to pronounce the North West Passage there, so I can't really... OK, so we've got naval officers sitting around, naval gazing, but they can't get through the ice. Naval gazing!

How would you entertain a ship full of sailors who are sort of hunkered over in the ice? Drag sea shanty. I'm up for that.

32 drag artists. Whittle them down.

This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, will know about today's subject. And I am guessing everyone knows where the Arctic is. But if you are confused, it's the bit at the top. Think polar bears, not penguins.

RuPaul's Northwest Passage Arctic. Vanessa, was Britain alone in organising these Arctic explorations in the kind of 1820s, 30s, you know, that sort of post-Napoleonic time?

OK. So we've got various sort of powers and superpowers in the region. But in the 1840s, Britain... Hello, Britain, at last. Launches the most famous Arctic mission of all. In the wind? In the 1840s. So it's pretty, you know, this is kind of peak Queen Victoria era. She came to power in 1837, so we're in the Victorian era. And the Franklin expedition is the big one.

It's the one that we're probably going to focus the rest of this episode on. Can you talk us through this Franklin chap? Who is Sir John Franklin?

So, Stu, he sounds perfect for an Arctic exploration, but maybe not so good for running a colony.

Sounds like the Scooby gang would have a field day with that. So he sounds like he should be top of the list for candidates being drawn up to lead this latest expedition. Is he the kind of number one go-to guy? He's not even close. Really?

Oh, that's so wonderfully tense.

Wow, I'm leaving. I can't learn anything better than that. OK, so there we go. In terms of the history of Arctic exploration, maybe people have heard of John Franklin's famed 19th century expedition, which recently was fictionalised in a novel, and then the TV series The Terror. God, that was great. Good telly. It also has inspired many novels, a book by national treasure Michael Palin.

Okay, so we have an illustrious explorer, but he's had a bit of a bad time of it six years off. He was at the bottom of the list. The other guy wanted the job, was offered the job, but turned the job down out of modesty and is now second in charge. And meanwhile, they've named their ships. Was he Jared Harris in The Terror? He might be. Yeah, I think he was.

But they've also named their ships the Terror and Erebus, Erebus being the Greek god of darkness and the underworld.

It really is, isn't it? These are not inspiring names. I prefer Discovery. Even Matthew was sort of nice.

The Terror and Erebus.

So Crozier is captaining the Terror, and Franklin is captaining the Erebus and the overall mission. And off they go. And these are not ordinary naval ships. They're naval vessels.

So these are ice breaking ships. These are steel hulled. They're no longer sail. I mean, they presumably might have sails. They have sails.

But this is the new technology. This is Victorian engineering.

Just relax in the terror. Yeah. So Stephen Goldner is the provisions officer who just sort of basically just sold us 8,000 tins of meat and then goes, it's probably fine. OK, that's great.

Yes, you can't just send a memo home saying, you know that food you sent out? Very leady. Very leady. So 129 crew on the two ships. Stu, what food would you pack for an Arctic expedition? You've got 8,000 tins to fill. What are you popping in there? Oh, I could put anything in a tin.

Of course, of course. So we need 8,000 tins, 2,000 of which are just lipstick. Yes, perfect, thank you. And that's only one of the reasons I've never been asked to be quartermaster. I was going to say. I don't think the Navy's going to phone you up any time soon.

I love him so. And of course, if you're a fan of giant foam skeletons, guitar solos and double denim, you'll know that Iron Maiden also have a heavy metal song called Stranger in a Strange Land about the Arctic. If you're listening from Canada, you might be familiar with the song Northwest Passage by Stan Rogers. But what is the Northwest Passage? Or what was the Northwest Passage?

It's probably edible. Okay, fair enough.

And to find a scurvy it's going to be citrus fruits.

Yeah, that's an awful lot of weight in the steerage, isn't it? But these are steam-powered, well, not quite steam, but sail and steam-powered ships. So they're designed to sort of plough through the ice. They've got some power behind them.

All right, so we've got two ships, 129 crew, two captains, one of whom was offered the job and turned it down, one of whom shouldn't have been offered the job but took it anyway. And off we go with our lovely voyage. Talk us through it.

Thank you.

Why did so many explorers risk everything to find it? And how was the humble tin can both blessing and a curse? Let's find out. Right, we've called this episode Arctic Exploration, but really we're talking about the Northwest Passage. Which is what? Or which was what? I mean, is it still a thing?

Thank you.

Thank you.

Not the official one. So this Northwest Passage is? Yes. Ah, already we're in trouble. And for sort of geography fans, when we say around North America, it's around North America but under Greenland.

And then under Russia, so that whole kind of...

It's finally done by Amundsen, who of course later famously is the conqueror of the South Pole, the race to the South Pole. That's it. Northwest achieved.

Oh, of course. Of course.

2008?

So 1497, John Cabot had tried. 2008 is the first time a ship of that size actually was able to clear those waters and go from one side to the other. God, this is history. Pointless. LAUGHTER

Gotcha. OK. So you're sort of rounding off. Once you go past Alaska, you're clear. You're out.

Thanks, Joe. All right, what have we learned since then? Because since then, we've got marine archaeology and sat-nav and geostationary satellites and archaeology.

That's incredible. Me too. 2014, 2016, both ships found and more questions raised. Now, that's a very tragic history, but an extraordinary history. And I suppose the geopolitics were sort of underlining all of that. Science sort of played a role, parts of it, the meteorology, the study and so on.

Time now for the nuance we know. This is the part of the show where Stu and I sit quietly in Disco Bay with our drag outfits. With our various drag outfits. Yeah, exactly. For two minutes while Professor Dr Vanessa takes the ship's wheel to tell us something that we need to know about Arctic exploration. So my stopwatch is ready. Take it away, Vanessa.

Yeah, and thanks to the climate catastrophe, which you've been trying to mine for jokes. Yes, in a responsible way. And in fairness, it's a very good show. What's quite interesting and perhaps depressing now is you can now comfortably cruise through this Northwest Passage on a lovely luxury liner. Do you know when that was first possible? Which year that became possible?

Let's not kill Stu. He's full of ideas. Yeah. I mean, it's extraordinary and a really important point, isn't it? The idea of a team leader is someone who has to be able to get people through the boring Tuesdays as well as through the storms and hurricanes. Yeah, really interesting.

So what do you know now? This is our quickfire quiz for Stu to see how much he's learned.

Jen Brister took eight pages of notes, so I think you're OK. I think I've done eight pages. LAUGHTER I've got ten questions for you. OK. You're always very good at this. OK. Question one for you, Stu. Yep. Question one. Giovanni di Verrazzano thought he had found the Northwest Passage in 1523, but where was he actually? Where was he actually? Yeah, he was 3,000 miles away in... 1523.

That's a good guess. Vanessa?

North Carolina. Sorry.

Oh, God, no, it is.

Question two. Why did Henry Hudson's crew stage a mutiny against him in 1610?

Yeah. That's correct. Question three. Which island did Captain Cook encounter when seeking the Northwest Passage and that is where he died? Hawaii. It was Hawaii. Question four. What were the names of Franklin Expedition's two ships? The Erebus or Erebus and the Terror. Yes, terrible names for ships. Question five.

How were indigenous communities able to traverse the Northwest Passage and also later Amundsen? Sleds and mostly sleds. Yeah, and smaller boats. Small boats. Yeah, small boats with animal skins. That's right. Question six. Who was the first woman to be awarded the Royal Geographical Society's Founders Medal in 1860? That was Lady Franklin. It was Lady Jane Franklin. Question seven.

What supplies might have contributed to the Franklin crew's eventual death? Well, sort of lead in the tins. Yes, contamination. That's right. Well done. Contamination from lead in the tins. That's right. Question eight. What was the Victory Point note?

On King William Island. It was, and it was Franklin's death being reported. But I'll let you have that. Question nine. Which famous novelist denounced the Inuit reports of cannibalism on the Franklin Expedition? Dickens. It was Dickens. And this question turned for nine out of ten. Which Scandinavian explorer finally navigated the passage in 1906? Amundsen. Nine out of ten. Very good, Stu.

Off the top of my head. Go on. OK. What was the original name of John Cabot?

Yeah, there we go. Yes! Giovan Ciabotto. Ciabotto. I meant Ciabotto. 10 out of 11, Steve Gossett. Yes! 10 out of 11. The legacy continues. Well done, Stu. Thank you very much, Stu. Lovely spending time with you, sort of going through this tricky bit of history. But, I mean, it's fascinating, right? I've enjoyed it enormously.

If you want more of that, you can check out our episodes with Stu on Blackbeard and ancient medicine, which are sort of medical and maritime too. For more of Dr Vanessa, or Professor Dr Vanessa... Choose our Victorian bodybuilding episode, which is also about masculinity in the 19th century. Sort of similar themes.

And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please leave a review, share the show with your friends, subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds to hear these episodes first, because they come out a month earlier on BBC Sounds. Switch on your notifications, otherwise you won't be told. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner.

We had the incredible Dr Vanessa Heggy from the University of Birmingham. Thank you, Vanessa.

And in Comedy Corner, we have the stupendous Stu Goldsmith. Thank you, Stu.

And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we navigate another treacherous historical subject. But for now, I'm off to go and bin all my tin food and scrub my kettle.

This episode of You're Dead to Me was researched by Matt Ryan. It was written by Matt Ryan, Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow and me. The audio producer was Steve Hankey and our production coordinator was Ben Hollands. It was produced by Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, me and senior producer Emma Nagoose and our executive editor was James Cook.

You're Dead to Me is a BBC Studios audio production for BBC Radio 4.

Yes. Given how inhospitable this environment would have been, why do you think European explorers were so keen to go and stick their flag up this back passage?

I think you did well with the first answer. The second answer started to veer away a bit. I mean, power and war is pretty good.

But you're right, money and power and war and the insatiable desire for Chinese porcelain were driving this. And porn as well, that drives everything. Was there any sex in the Arctic? I don't know if there was any sex. Well, maybe.

We should say, I mean, it wasn't just Europeans who were exploring Northwest Passage. As always on this show, we have to sort of say it's not just European explorers. I mean, indigenous peoples were already sort of exploring this. They'd already discovered it by being born there. They were living there. Yeah, definitely.

Yeah, well, we've done an episode on the Vikings getting to Newfoundland, you know, a thousand years ago. So I guess those interactions continued.

Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are packing our tins of preserved beef, donning our thermal undies and sailing off in search of the Northwest Passage. And joining me on the good ship, You're Dead to Me, are two very special shipmates.

So it's not big, long ships, not huge, not massive battleships. We're talking about a little coracle, a little canoe. Yeah.

That's a lot of paddling.

Blimey. That is absolutely taking my breath away. I'm just looking at the map going, Scotland's not even on the map.

So there's a motorway service station in between.

OK, so we've done some foreshadowing there because we've talked about the 12th century and indigenous communities. But we need to get on to the Europeans because they're the ones with all the sort of drama and danger. The first European voyager was in 1497. And like you, Stu, he had a Bristol connection. You're a Bristolian now by choice.

Do you know who this explorer might have been? 1497, set off from Bristol. Blackbeard.

Oh, God. Yeah, OK. Yeah, it was Cabot, who had a variety of names. We call him John Cabot in England, but he was Zwan Caboto because he was Venetian, which is a different dialect. Was he really? I didn't know that. He was a Venetian.

You could try.

Zouane Chabotot. Zouane Chabotot. But also, he was also... Zouane Chabotot. He was also Jean Cabot, to the French, and he was John Cabot.

Yeah, that's good. So 1497, Vanessa, he sets off from Bristol. Why? And in what ship? Because he's a Venetian. What's he doing in Bristol?

Much colder than we were expecting, am I to say? Yeah. So John Cabot, or Zwan Cabot, was sent off by Henry VII, Henry Tudor, father of Henry VIII, from Bristol, returns to Bristol and says, I found China, job done. There are more expeditions and they're not, they don't go that well, do they, Vanessa?

In History Corner, she's Associate Professor in the History of Science and Medicine at the University of Birmingham's Department of Applied Health Science. What a title. You may have read her long-running science column in The Guardian newspaper or her recent book, Higher and Colder, on the history of extreme exploration.

Yeah, I mean, there's definitely going to be... You don't want to come back and say, no, it's definitely not China. You probably want to say, could be China. Your Majesty, we've completely failed. You're not going to say that, are you?

Yeah. That money you gave me, wasted. It's gone. Threw it in the sea. I've cut my head off in advance. So you're right. So Giovanni de Verrazzano... thinks he's found the Northwest Passage, he's actually found North Carolina, which actually, of course, is where Blackbeard operated. Ah, of course. We're linking back to your earlier episode. So that was 1523.

Then we get more explorers heading off to chart Newfoundland's coastline, and then they're competing in this sort of 16th century game show, which we might sort of loosely call Claim That Arctic. It is everyone's racing. So let's talk about Martin Frobisher, because he's next up in the list. So who is Frobisher? He's another Englishman?

And you will definitely remember her from our episode on Victorian bodybuilding. It's Dr Vanessa Heggie. Welcome back, Vanessa.

Yeah, I mean, it's a very sad reminder of the sort of cost of these explorations, obviously going out and the danger of it. But also if you're sort of kidnapping people and bringing them back home, that's also pretty cruel.

If people want to know more about that, we did an episode with Professor Caroline Dodds-Pennock on the Columbian Exchange, which talks about those sort of movements of people and goods and ideas. But let's get back to slightly cheerier notes. Frobisher found some treasures.

Oh, lovely. Naturally.

Yes, but I think he was very keen on going, it's definitely gold, it's gold, gold, gold. Our next contestant is a man called Henry Hudson. Heard the name? No. Okay, that's fair. He's quite famous.

And in Comedy Corner, he's a sensational stand-up and the host of the brilliant The Comedian's Comedian podcast, which I love. You may have seen him on BBC Live at the Apollo recently or on Conan O'Brien's show, but you will definitely remember him from our back catalogue, including episodes on the history of fandom and Blackbeard the Pirate. It's Stu Goldsmith. Welcome back, Stu.

You're not far off there, actually, Stu. So he's got a bay named after him, he's got a river named after him. I was going to say, why do you think he went down in history? But falling in a river is a pretty good guess.

Methane, permafrost, I've got nothing. I enjoyed the attempt. Vanessa, why is this guy so famous? He gets a bay named after him, he gets a river named after him. That must mean he did something heroic, no?

And you'll know her from this very podcast from many, many episodes, including recent highlights, Pythagoras, What a Dude, and the history of Broadway musicals. It's your Dead to Me superstar, Desiree Burch. Welcome back, Desiree.

Oh, man. So Isabella takes things into her own hands and she goes on the run. Does she take any of her kids with her?

And does she escape or does she get tracked down?

She's been taken in by the Van Wagenens. She's got her daughter Sophia with her. And then she hears that her son Peter has been taken because her husband Thomas has died, Michelle. Peter had been still in enslavement, owned by the Dumonts, and John Dumont had decided to sell him to a slave owner in Alabama. And this is hugely upsetting. And she does something extraordinary, Michelle.

Can you tell us what she does in 1828?

The amazing thing really now is that Isabella is free. She's been assisted by the Van Wageners. She's still called Isabella Van Wagenen, but she goes off to New York and she now goes to work for white families, but wealthy families as a free woman. And one family is called the Latourettes. They sound quite French to me, Michelle. Is she speaking French now?

And they're very religious, aren't they?

Desiree, you and Michelle have previously covered Harriet Tubman and Josephine Baker. Now, Harriet Tubman, obviously an abolitionist, a very famous woman in American history. Are you excited to be back for more abolitionist history? What are your emotions when you hear the word Sojourner Truth?

Boom. But then she finds someone even more interesting. Someone comes to her door calling himself the prophet Matthias. Desiree, who do you think he claimed to be? I'll give you a clue. He's wearing gold robes. He's got a fancy beard when he shows up at her door.

Yeah.

Yeah. And we've done a cult already with Pythagoras. So this is our second cult together, Desiree.

And Isabella is trying to preach, Michelle, but is not allowed to preach in this cult. So that's not ideal.

Yeah. And the commune collapses in 1834, Desiree. So only a year later. But Isabella stays loyal to Matthias. She lends him money. She gets him a lawyer.

Even his own wife hadn't joined the commune. But Isabella is still team Matthias. It's a bit of a red flag, isn't it, when the wife won't join? But.

Important thing to say here, Michelle, I think, is that after the collapse of the commune, Sojourner Truth emerges as an identity. The woman we, you know, the name of the episode, the woman people have heard of, the person Desiree coloured in at school. How does Isabella Van Wagenen become Sojourner Truth?

Oh, she believes the world's going to end.

Amazing.

One hour.

Not going to cut it. She'd gone from Isabella Bumfrey to Isabella Waggonen. She's now Sojourner Truth. And soon she was living in another commune, Desiree.

He loves a guy in a beard and robes. But this one's less problematic, Michelle. This is the Northampton Association for Education and Industry, which sounds like a kind of local government thing. What is this commune?

And Desiree, this is where she meets another very famous American abolitionist. Do you want to guess who? Can it please be Harriet Tubman?

It sounds like an eye condition. I'm biopic. I can't see out of my left eye. Yeah, I don't know.

Yeah, well done. Yeah, very good.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, Harriet was probably busy sort of, you know... It was busy shooting people.

Exactly. And Frederick Douglass, we've done an episode on it. Listeners, if you want to check that out, it's a really good one. Douglass is a renowned orator. He's a brilliant speaker and incredibly articulate. You might assume that Douglass and Sojourner Truth get on really well, but There's sort of tension, Michelle.

Who's the headline act? Is it Frederick Douglass or is it Sojourner Truth?

So what do you know? This is the So What Do You Know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And I think American listeners are going to immediately have a Desiree response of, I know stuff! Hang on, do I know stuff? Do I know anything? Perhaps it's a childhood memory coming back.

I mean, it's fascinating, isn't it? Because we can lift both of these up as heroes and as pioneers. But actually, there's a sort of fractious relationship there. So Jenna Truth does copy one of Douglas's better ideas, i.e. a book. He writes a sort of very, very famous book, sells quite a lot of copies, 4,500. And six months later, Jenna Truth sort of announces that she's going to do a book.

What's her book called, Michelle?

Yeah, put it on the front cover. You must buy this book. It's very important. Like, seriously, you guys, buy this book. So it's published in 1850. So it takes four or five years or so to actually get this book down. And it's an autobiography with two voices, which is a slightly unusual idea. But there is a PR strategy in that The Journal of Truth quite cleverly gets a celebrity endorsement.

She gets the endorsement of Harriet Beecher Stowe. Do you know Harriet Beecher Stowe, Desiree? Uncle Tom's Cabin?

Yeah, okay. Huge, huge bestseller. Another abolitionist. By getting an endorsement, that sells copies. And later, Michelle Stowe publishes an article about meeting Sojourner Truth. It's an interesting document, but it's tricky.

Outside of the States, I think probably less familiar name. She's perhaps most famous for the quote, Ain't I a Woman, which has been used by feminist activists for years, including by Bell Hooks for her debut book title. But there are no big movie biopics, biopics, whatever we're calling it. There are no big TV dramas. If you go on IMDb, you're not getting much back, which is quite surprising.

Yeah, you want that endorsement, you just have to sort of cringe your way through it, I guess. In 1852, just the year before that kind of big interview with Harriet Beecher Stowe, or that big moment with Harriet Beecher Stowe, in 1852, Sojourner and Frederick Douglass clashed again

Because Douglass was starting to sort of suggest that taking up arms might be necessary for the emancipation of African-Americans and that perhaps God had abandoned them. And Sojourner manages to shut him up in public in front of an audience by saying, Frederick, is God dead? What a line.

He's literally silenced by this line, Desiree. Can you imagine her with hecklers in a comedy club? So Jonah, truth, live and loud.

So in the 1850s, with the book out, Sojourner Truth went on a book tour. Her name means traveling, so she's living up to her name. She's traveling. And she's fighting for women's rights as well as an abolitionist, which is a really important distinction. And she meets Michelle William Lloyd Garrison. She meets a British MP, George Thompson.

So there's an international movement here, which is interesting. Is she famous by this point? Is she renowned? Are people flocking to go and see her talk?

So she's funny, Desiree. And she's 5'11". She's got this deep, strong voice.

So what was Sojourner's journey? How did she go from enslavement to crusading campaigner? And was Ain't I a Woman even her line? Let's find out. Right, Dr. Michelle, we'll start at the beginning. When and where was Sojourner Truth born? And I'm presuming that wasn't her name at birth.

There we go. Now, I think we have to get to the most important speech that she is said to have given, which is, of course, the entire woman speech, Michelle. And this is an iconic speech. Does she say that? What do we know about the speech? Can you give us a potted history of it?

We'll talk more about it in the nuance window. I know, Michelle. But the thing that follows the speech soon after is the American Civil War. What did Sojourner Truth do in the Civil War?

She met three presidents in her life, Desiree. She met Abraham Lincoln, but she also met Andrew Johnson and then Ulysses S. Grant as well. So she's, you know, she's moving in high circles. How do you think the meeting went with Abe Lincoln, Desiree? Well, have you ever...

So you think she played Sojourner Truth or Dare with the president? She was, you know, a bit of a risky game. Yes, and he was like, dare. Dare, yeah. Michelle, I don't think we know how it went necessarily, but we get a sense perhaps that the person she was with felt that he was rude to her.

Yeah, I suppose for Sojourner Truth, her saying he was amenable to me, that works in her favor. So maybe she wants that meeting to be well received.

So like Douglas, Sojourner Truth used photography very carefully, very cleverly to sort of disseminate her image. But after the war, was she an important part of the conversations in the rebuilding of America, Michelle? Did Sojourner Truth get her due after the crisis had ended?

When you say land for African-Americans, are you saying that she wanted to create like reservations almost for people who'd been freed?

And so the end of her life, I mean, she's already elderly in her 70s. She lived into her 80s. But at the end of her life, how did her life end?

But sometimes the greats need a rival to push them further on. Of course. So 1883, 86 years old. It's a long, long, extraordinary life. It's been quite the sojourn we've had, Desiree. Any final thoughts before we do our nuance window?

Beautifully summarized. And also, I just love the fact that she had a Dutch accent. You just don't imagine that, right?

The whole time.

Time now for the nuance window. This is where Desiree and I listen in rapturous silence for two minutes while Dr. Michelle preaches to us about something we need to know about Sojourner Truth. So my stopwatch is ready. Please take it away, Dr. Michelle.

Thank you so much, Michelle. Desiree?

That's amazing. And also, I think sometimes we don't always know what people said exactly in speeches, but you can sort of see the effect they had on people. It's almost like you can see where the ripples are in the water and the pebble is gone, but the ripples are still there.

And that's quite nice that with Sojourner Truth, maybe she didn't say, ain't I a woman, but she definitely communicated that concept to people. So it's still amazing. So what do you know now? So time now for our quiz. This is the So What Do You Know Now? This is for Desiree to see how much she has learned. And Desiree, I mean, at this point, we know that full marks is guaranteed with you.

You are our quiz champion.

I mean, I'm sure you'll get most of them, but let's see if 10 is doable.

All right, let's do that.

Fine. We'll start with an easy one. Question one. What was Sojourner Truth's first language? Oh, Dutch. Very good. Okay. Question two. What did Sojourner Truth do when a cult leader, Matthias, appeared at her door saying he was Jesus Christ?

Question three. What was the name of Sojourner's son whose freedom she successfully sued for in a court of law?

It was Peter.

Question four. Why did she adopt the name Sojourner Truth? What did it mean to her?

Very good. Question five. Which fellow abolitionist and longtime rival did Truth first meet at the Northampton Association?

Question six. What is unusual about Truth's autobiography?

And it's Olive Gilbert. Question seven. What famous line from a speech given by Sojourner Truth at the Ohio Women's Rights Convention might have been misquoted?

And maybe with a Dutch accent too.

So there we go. Question eight. What technology did Sojourner Truth use to disseminate her image?

Question nine. What was notable about Sojourner Truth's appearance and physicality?

Because she did all the work.

And question 10. This for a perfect 10. So Jenna Truth met three U.S. presidents. Can you name two of them?

Perfect. Well done. Desiree Birch, never in doubt, 10 out of 10. Well done.

Listener, if you want more from Desiree and Michelle, check out our episodes on Harriet Tubman and Josephine Baker, both extraordinary women. And for more abolitionist history, why not listen to our episode on Frederick Douglass, who was a very important and interesting man.

Exactly that. I'm a big Douglas fan. But yes, I think there was genuine rivalry and respect. I think they're in a relationship with Sojourner Truth. But anyway, listen to that one too. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we follow in the footsteps of another forgotten firebrand.

But for now, I'm off to go and grow my beard, cover myself in gold and convince my neighbours that I am Jesus Christ. Hello. Bye. This episode of You're Dead to Me was researched by Madeleine Bracey. It was written by Madeleine Bracey, Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, Emma Neguse and me. The audio producer was Steve Hankey and our production coordinator was Ben Hollands.

It was produced by Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, me and senior producer Emma Neguse and our executive editor was James Cook. You're Dead to Me is a BBC Studios audio production for BBC Radio 4.

That's fascinating. Desiree, do you know what language Isabella grew up speaking?

Dutch as her primary first language. And you said 10 siblings, possibly 11 siblings. We're not sure. She's one of 12 or 10. So the parents have been enslaved. The children are enslaved. And the person who enslaves them is Colonel Johannes Hardenberg. And you said he's wealthy. What happened when he died?

Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner and I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are strapping on our sturdiest walking boots and hiking across America to learn about renowned 19th century abolitionist, orator and civil rights activist Sojourner Truth.

It's a horrible, horrible childhood. And she was sold to an English speaking family, the Neelys. And she didn't she didn't speak English. Were they dicks about it, though? I imagine they weren't hugely supportive being a slave owning family.

And to help us, we have two very special guests. in History Corner. She's an assistant professor in African-American history at Cornell University. Her research focuses on black and indigenous histories, including the history of racial formation and identity in America. And you might remember her from our previous episodes of this show about Harriet Tubman and Josephine Baker.

And then in 1810, Isabella was sold again for $175. Who is she sold to this time?

So, I mean, that's a strange dynamic, I suppose, that she's there for nearly 18 years and she's fond of the man who's enslaved her. That's complicated stuff, Desiree, isn't it?

Who is she married to? And is it her choice? How does this work?

In 1826, Desiree, something important happens in Isabella's life, in many lives, actually. Do you want to guess what it is? Or maybe you know what it is. 1826 in New York's history.

It's Dr. Michelle Crestfield. Welcome back, Michelle.

So yeah, yeah. Bang on. Michelle, 4th of July, 1827, which then comes into act in 28th.

Michelle, this state of New York abolishes slavery or what is the definition?

Thank you.

Official Cornell degree for you, Desiree.

It is. We're sort of series one reunion in some ways. It's lovely. And in Comedy Corner, she needs no introduction. She's a comedian, actor, and writer. You'll have seen her all over the TV on Taskmaster, Frankie Boyle's New World Order, The Horn Section TV show, and Too Hot to Handle.

Oh.

That's heartbreaking. And also, presumably that means the children could be taken away from her still.

That's why they're extinct.

So it's a protein-rich diet. You can see why they need those toilets plumbed in. So what other non-meaty foods were going into the lunchtime meals?

We've also got a building called the Granary. I hear, do you know what the granary was for? This is going to be one of your annoying ones.

Du bist bei uns. Das Granary war nicht ein Granary, Danica?

He's very busy and you'll definitely remember him from our Julius Caesar episode. It's Ahir Shah.

Oh, verdammt!

Heute gehen wir weit zurück in das alte Vergangenheit, also weit über Julius Caesar, um ein Thema mit viel niedrigerer Namenwahrnehmung zu erforschen. Was weißt du über die Indische Zivilisation, Ahir?

Eine Bohnenhaus. Ja, ja. Das ist, wo du Bohnen nachdem Menschen gestorben sind, aber sie alle zusammengefasst werden. Richtig. Okay, aber in Bezug auf Beweise von Stratifikationen, es könnte Beweise von Rich und Poch sein, oder?

Die Indische Zivilisation. Eine der großen Fragen ist, warum endet sie? Und es endet vor ungefähr 4.000 Jahren. Und hier haben wir eine Mini-Quiz für dich, also habe ich vier Optionen. Welche dieser vier hat nicht als Grund für den Ende der Indischen Zivilisation vorgeschlagen? Nicht vorgeschlagen, verstehe. Nicht vorgeschlagen. Also der erste. Invasion und militärische Zerstörung.

Der zweite wäre wirtschaftliche Schäden und Klimawandel. Der dritte wird ein Meteor-Impakt sein. Und der vierte wird eine erhöhte Population sein, die zu Ressourcenexhaustion führt. Welcher von diesen wird nicht als Grund von Archaeologen erwähnt?

I like your answer. I prefer it to the actual answer. The actual answer is meteor because I made that up. It's a double trick. I double, double, double. Yeah. But Danica, these are all reasons that have been given. Do we have any sense of which of them might be more true or they are equally true? How are we making these assumptions? Yes.

Und dann wirst du dich wirklich dumm fühlen, Greg. Es war die Revenge der Dinosaurier. Der Meteor hat sie rausgezogen. Sie kamen zurück und sagten, wir haben eine Wendung auf den Indus.

Danica, was passiert mit den Szenen in den 1920er-Jahren? Sind sie exkubiert? Wer exkubiert sie? Was ist dann das Prozess?

This is where Ahir and I put down our trowels and we listen to Danica for two uninterrupted minutes while she tells us something we need to know. So my stopwatch is ready and if you are ready, Dr. Danica, please take it away.

Alright, well thank you so much, Ahir. Thank you so much, Dr. Danica. And listener, if you want to explore more ancient archaeological mysteries, then why not listen to our episodes on China's Terracotta Army or Stone Age Çatalhöyük in Turkey. Or if South Asian history is your thing, then check out our episode on the Mughal Empire. You'll find them all and more on BBC Sounds.

And remember, if you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a review, share the show with friends, subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sound so you never miss an episode. But it's now time for me to say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner. We have the amazing Dr. Danica Parik from the University of Cambridge. Thank you, Danica.

Und in Comedy Corner hatten wir den tollen Ahir Shah. Danke, Ahir. Absolut mein Vergnügen. Es ist immer so ein Vergnügen, das zu machen. So interessant. Danke. Und zu Ihnen, liebe Zuschauer, folgt mir nächste Woche, als wir mehr faszinierende historische Nuggets entdecken. Aber für jetzt bin ich weg und recordiere mein Archäologie-inspirtes Heavy-Metal-Album Mound of the Dead.

Great! Well, that brings us to the first segment of the podcast, the So What Do You Know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And I'll bet you've heard of Troy, the subject of Homer's epic poem, The Iliad, as well as the slightly dodgy film with Brad Pitt.

I am your spy expert.

And we've previously regaled you about the glories of Ramesses the Great and ancient Egypt and the New Kingdom and all that. But these mighty cities came centuries after the Indus people were doing their thing. And yet, the Indus civilization doesn't get anywhere near as much coverage in modern films or books or television or whatever.

Maybe you've seen the Hindi-language film set in the city of Mohenjo-Daro. It stars Bollywood-Heartthrob Hrithik Roshan. Or maybe you've read Vineet Bajpai's trilogy of thriller novels. But for most of you, I reckon you're coming into this episode feeling pretty blank. So, wer waren die ältesten Menschen der Inder und was hatten sie zu essen? Und wo gehen sie in die Toilette?

Und wie wissen wir alles über sie? Und was hat das mit Unikornen zu tun? Lass uns herausfinden. Danica, lass uns mit den Grundlagen anfangen. Wann und wo war die Inder-Zivilisation und wie lange her sind wir zurück?

Harappa is the modern name. What does Mohenjo-Daro mean?

Sick! Ahia, what's your favourite heavy metal band?

Ich meine, ich denke, was wir tun können, ist, euch ein aeriales Foto der größten Stadt Mahenjo-Daro zu zeigen. Oh wow, okay. Also auf der linken Seite haben wir unsere aeriale Sicht und dann auf der rechten Seite haben wir eine Reconstruktion, wie die Stadt aussehen könnte, als die Menschen in ihr lebten.

Excellent. GCSE Geography flooding back into my brain there.

Seals balancing beach balls on their noses. What is a seal in an archaeological sense? It's a kiss from a rose seal.

Hallo und willkommen zu You're Dead to Me, dem Radio 4 Comedy-Podcast, der die Geschichte ernst nimmt. Mein Name ist Greg Jenner, ich bin ein öffentlicher Historiker, Autor und Broadcaster. Und heute gehen wir zurück in die Bronze-Zeit und fahren den Indus-River, um alles über die Archäologie von Toiletten, Terrakotta, Ornithenien und sogar Unikornen zu lernen. Ja, es ist die Indus-Zivilisation.

So, let's talk about daily life in the city. And I want to get down and dirty, I hear, and I want to talk to you about the toilet situation. In fact, I'm going to ask you, having been to Pompeii, what do you think the toilet situation would have been comparably 2,000 years earlier in South Asia?

Vielleicht etwas wie das. Das ist ein sehr guter Wunsch. Danica, ich denke, wir können... Ich werde es hier sagen. Die Indischen waren ziemlich beeindruckend, wenn es um Sanitätsinfrastruktur ging. Sie sind Turdnerde. Sind wir nicht alle hier?

Ich bin schon beeindruckt von Indien. Ich meine, die Größe der Stadt, wir sprechen zumindest vor 4.000 Jahren. Im gleichen Zeitpunkt in der Geschichte haben wir ältere Ägypten, wir haben ältere Mesopotamien. Also ist da Interkonektivität nicht nur zwischen den Indiener Städten, sondern auch außerhalb ihres Empires, um es modern zu nennen?

Meluha, that's nice. So there's a lot of animal imagery, and yet the Indus is sometimes dubbed the faceless civilization. Do you want to guess why?

That's a sensible guess, but I don't think that's quite right. So Daniko, why is faceless used as an adjective?

Und um uns diese gerettete Geschichte zu entdecken, haben wir zwei sehr besondere Gäste mit uns. In History slash Archaeology Corner. She's a postdoctoral fellow at University of Cambridge Museums and postdoctoral research associate at Pembroke College, Cambridge. Her research includes the archaeology of the Indus Civilization of South Asia, as well as empire and race in museum collections.

They don't sound very faceless to me.

Why are they called faceless? We don't have the specificity of individual names and identities, perhaps. But there are these two very famous figurines. One's called the Priest King. He sounds fancy. And the other is called Dancing Girl. Feels like there's a bit more presumption there. But Danica, why are they called Dancing Girl and Priest King? And do we think that's valid?

And where are these figurines now?

Ja, ich meine, die Geschichte ist politisch. Wir haben über die faceless Zivilisation gesprochen, von der wir dann entschieden haben, nein, das ist nicht fair. Ich meine, Mohenjo-Daro bedeutet Mound of the Dead. Das bedeutet, dass sie vermutlich tot sind, oder? Es müssen menschliche Erinnerungen sein, die Archäologen ausgesucht haben. Was wissen wir über die Menschen durch ihre Erinnerungen?

And she's a founding member of the European Society of Black and Allied Archaeologists. It's Dr. Danica Parik. Welcome, Danica.

Aber wir haben einige Böden und natürlich archäologische, moderne wissenschaftliche Techniken, die ziemlich spannend sind. Strontiumanalysen, Isotopanalysen und solche Sachen. Und du kannst herausfinden, was die Leute gegessen haben und so weiter. Warte, was? Oh ja, lange nachdem du weggegangen bist, werde ich wissen, was du für den Mittagessen hattest.

In terms of the science available now, we can tell where people grew up from the soil quality and water quality, I think. There's all sorts of things, aren't there, Danica?

I'm excited to dig in. Oh, an archaeology pun. Well done. Congratulations. Secret handshake for you. And in Comedy Corner, he's a stand-up comedian, writer and podcast regular. You might have seen his stand-up special Dots on HBO Max or heard him on Radio 4 or seen him on Mock the Week or Have Got News for You or Live at the Apollo or MASH Report.

Yes. So Henri is dead. The king is dead. Long live the king. Her son is now king.

Right. So Mary, queen of Scots, is now queen of France. Francois is king of France, but he's only 15. Shappi, you've got a teenage boy.

How would he do at ruling the country?

So what level of power does the king have compared to the mother, Catherine de' Medici, who's now really running the show?

So the Guises, G-U-I-S-E-S.

Yes.

There's also another family who are jockeying at court. So we've got the Guises family. So that's Mary's uncles. They're pretty scary blokes. There's also the Bourbons who make delicious biscuits. They're led by Antoine, king of Navarre, which is Spain or sort of near Spain, Navarre.

So Antoine and his brother Louis Condé. So you've got the Bourbon family, you've got the Guises family. They're on opposite sides politically and religion-wise because the Bourbons are the Protestants and the Guises are Catholics.

Then more bad news. Francois II suddenly becomes very unwelshappy.

And we even come up with our own criminal nicknames. Cunning Crone. Luce the Noose. Luta Lucy and Robber Roz.

And Catherine, having seen her or seen many people in her life die, knows what's about to happen.

Yeah. Yeah. And she has to pull the emergency sort of parachute button and prepare the next one. She's sort of saying goodbye to Wild King and trying to prep the next one.

He's nine years old.

Yeah.

Well, OK, so your 15-year-old, your teenage boy would plan town centres. What would a nine-year-old do? Ask his mummy. Exactly. OK.

Which son is this then?

We do now have the French wars of religion.

And these are incredibly serious. And we are a comedy show, so we can't be too flippant here. But they kill over two million people.

Three decades short, but millions of people die in these wars of religion between Catholic factions and Huguenots. And Catherine's... sort of reign. I mean, she doesn't reign, but she's ruling.

She rules.

We have to now put this into the context of the time, right? So we have this horrible series of wars that last for 30 years, but they don't initially last for 30 years. They last for one year initially, and then there's a peace treaty.

Our guest detective team is expanding too. This season, we're joined by broadcasters, barristers, authors, activists, a psychologist and even an artist.

Yeah, it's expensive, it's terrifying, you can't trust who's on your team. Exactly. You don't want wars ever. So we have a horrible massacre in 1562 at Vassy.

The Duke of Guise is then assassinated on Orléans in 1563. There's a peace treaty, the Edict of Amboise.

And then that treaty does not last at all. And this war continues until 1598. So from 1562 to 1598. This is the political context in the middle of Catherine's rule is horrifying wars between... And her sons, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So it's expensive, it's devastating, it's horrific. The horrifying event, the key event, is called St Bartholomew's Day Massacre. It's in 1572.

Catherine is often blamed for this.

Because he'd been assassinated.

There's no one in the 16th century who is a nice person in power. Like, you have to be cruel. You have to be ruthless. You have to be ruthless. To survive. Yeah. 1574, King Charles dies. Her son dies again. She's now on to her third son.

Another Henri.

So you've got Henri. He's having his go as king. Luckily, he's already had some useful work experience. Shappi, do you know why?

No, weirdly, he was king of Poland for a bit.

It's like the Duke of Edinburgh Award. So, Estelle, can you tell us about Henri, the new, new, new king of France?

We tried to understand these women.

So, Henri is now ruling. Catherine is still sort of reigning a bit because she's still mother of the king. But she still finds time to meddle in the love life of her fourth remaining son, Hercule, who gets renamed François, Duke of Anonçon. But Francis Hercule sadly dies aged 29 in 1584 after a bungled military campaign in the Netherlands.

So Catherine is marrying off the daughters as well, which means she's sort of the grandmother of Europe.

She's sort of, you know, she's arranging all these marriages and, you know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And Spain is a superpower at this time, isn't it? Absolutely. France and Spain are superpowers.

And what about her final years, Catherine? I mean, she's quite old by this point, not like elderly, but she's lived a life by this point. So what's life like for her in the mid-1850s or so?

We relate to them.

Yeah, he's assassinated, isn't he?

So she dies aged 69. France still ripped apart by a religious war. Her son is murdered. And the question, I suppose, is how does France cope without her stabilising influence? But she's not managed to stabilise everything, obviously. So what happens to the Valois line, her dynasty?

It's a life and a half, isn't it, Chappie?

We've gone through that.

Join me for the second season of Lady Swindlers, where true crime meets history with a twist. Available now. Listen on the BBC app or wherever you get your podcasts.

Yeah.

Yes.

Well, there we go. That was quite wise of me. That was very wise. Very wise. I felt like we should just leave it there. Bye. The Nuance Window! No! Right, it's time now for the nuance window. This is the part of the show where Shappi and I sit enraptured in our throne room while Estelle holds court for two minutes, tells us something we need to know about Catherine de' Medici.

My stopwatch is ready. Take it away, Dr Estelle.

Thank you very much. Beautifully said. That was really beautiful.

OK, well, thank you so much, Estelle. Thank you, Shappi. And listener, if you want to hear more of Shappi, you can check out our episodes on Justinian and Theodora, another fascinating royal rags to riches tale. Or, of course, the ancient Olympics episode, if you want to get your Olympics nostalgia vibes on.

And for more quality queens, we have episodes on Emma of Normandy and Eleanor of Aquitaine. And remember, if you enjoyed the podcast, please leave us a review, share the show with your friends, subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sound so you never miss an episode. And I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests.

Join me and my all-female team of detectives as we revisit the audacious crimes of women trying to make it in a world made for men. These were women who traded in crime, but who were ahead of their time. History calls them criminals. Society calls them frauds. But here on Lady Swindlers, we call them ordinary women who lived extraordinary lives. And we're still talking about them today. MUSIC

In History Corner, we have the excellent Dr Estelle Perronc from Northeastern University, London. Thank you, Estelle.

And in Comedy Corner, we had the sensational Shaparak Korsandi. Thank you, Shappi.

It's been fab. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we crown another historical subject. But for now, I'm off to go invent the Giza biscuit to rival the Bourbons. Bye!

Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I am a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are grabbing our crowns and galloping back to the 16th century to learn all about the famous French queen Catherine de' Medici. And to help us, we have two very special guests.

In History Corner, she's Associate Professor in Early Modern History at Northeastern University London. She's an expert on royal and diplomatic studies in 16th and 17th century Europe, especially queenship. And luckily for us, she's also the author of The Incredible Blood, Fire and Gold, the story of Elizabeth I and Catherine de' Medici. It's Dr Estelle Perronc. Welcome, Estelle.

And in Comedy Corner, she's an award-winning comedian and author. You'll have seen her on all the TV, on such shows as Live at the Apollo, Michael McIntyre's Comedy Roadshow, Have That News For You. Maybe you've read one of her brilliant books, including her recent exploration of living with ADHD, Scatterbrain.

And you'll definitely remember her from our episodes on Justinian and Theodora, the ancient Olympics and the Battle of Salamis. Welcome back to Chaparral, Sandy.

You are intelligent. You're a very intelligent person.

Okay. We've never had a sort of job swap before on the podcast.

I'm sorry. Okay. Well, neither can I. Do you know the name Catherine de' Medici? She's quite famous from history.

She is Italian. Well, half Italian, half French. We'll get to that. So, what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And Catherine de' Medici has popped up on TV screens quite a few times in recent years, most recently played as a Machiavellian operator by Samantha Morton in The Serpent Queen.

Maybe you will remember her as the scary mother-in-law in the wildly inaccurate but distinctively costumed Netflix series Reign, all about Mary, Queen of Scots. Or if video games are more your thing, you might know her as one of the leaders in Civilisation VI. But what about the real story of Catherine's life? Was she really as scheming as the TV dramas make out?

And what's it like to have a pope as your uncle? Let's find out. Right, Estelle, we'll start at the beginning. Actually, let's start before the beginning. You've heard of the Medici family, Chappie, actually. The name rang a bell, but you weren't sure on the pronunciation.

Yeah. And Florence is their home.

So Catherine was born Caterina. Yeah. So your question, Shappi, about Catherine.

Yes.

And then saying you now need to move into that house.

They're into the second Florentine Republic. He's given this land that he has to go and fight for. He marries the French noble who is royal.

Meet a swindler with ever so many names.

I know.

So we can imagine that her childhood, Katerina's childhood, would be... Amazing. Amazing, luxurious, glamorous. Not the case, Estelle.

They're not a very robust family, are they?

Her great uncle, isn't it?

Pope Clement VII.

So, how do you think the Pope, her uncle, Clement VII, secures her future? She's a young woman, she's 11, 12 years old. What do you think the Pope does to make sure she's got a backup plan?

To marry off?

His name is Henri, right? Henri, yeah. OK, all right. I'm not going to honk my problematic marriage collection. Sorry. But I am going to say, 14 is very young, just psychologically and developmentally. But at the time, I understand.

OK, all right. We can perhaps update the name because she was Caterina de' Medici. But now she's Catherine.

Okay, okay. No, that's fine. That's fair. Catherine. Okay, so we have teenage newlyweds, Catherine and Henri. They're first set up by the Pope. Already a very dramatic episode of Married at First Sight. But then the drama really ramps up because another woman enters the marriage. It's all very Lady Diana. Indeed, Diana is appropriate because this lady is Diane, Diana de Poitiers.

Well, she's 19 years older.

And the problem, of course, from a dynastic point of view, and this is where it gets sad, is that there's a fertility problem, that Catherine is not conceiving a child, so she can't provide the air that is needed. And so that's the pressure as well.

But deep down, all she really wants is her dream home. And you don't have to just take our word for it.

And they have how many children?

Ten.

Yeah. So the ten children, we'll have to rattle through them because we haven't got all day. So the ten children, the sons, so seven survive. The sons are François, Charles, Henri, Hercule.

Yeah. And then the daughters are Elizabeth, Claude and Margaret, who marries Henri of Navarre, which will become important in the future. And Elizabeth will marry Philip II of Spain, also important in the future. So she's done her dynastic duty, Shappi. Ten kids, seven survive. But in 1547, King François I died. So the kind of the king who had sort of taken under his wing and taught her to ride.

Yeah, that's it. But she is elevated. Her husband is now the king of France. So she is the queen of France.

Ah, come on. I know. Is this where we find Catherine de' Medici, Queen Consort of France? Is this where she learns the game of politics?

Henri marries off his son, Dauphin Françoise, to the Duke of Guise's niece. And her name is famous to history. She's Mary, Queen of Scots. Her daughter-in-law is Mary, Queen of Scots. Catherine.

This season, we're chasing fake mediums, a lady burglar and the infamous Yorkshire witch from England and Scotland to the US and beyond. Our Lady Swindlers are truly international. She moved from Scotland to England to Italy, later to New York to New Zealand and Australia. As always, we're travelling back in time with our in-house historian, Professor Rosalind Crone.

But we'll do Mary another day. Different episode.

Catherine is now learning about oratory. She's learning about politics. She's also learning about another O, the occult. Shappi, have you ever heard of Nostradamus?

Nostradamus was one of her advisors.

Yeah.

Yeah, he does feel very medieval.

But he's banging around at the French court for some reason.

History? Yeah.

Nobby. In 1555, Nobby Nostradamus prophesies to his queen. He says, the young lion will overcome the old. In a field of combat, in a single fight, he will pierce his eyes in a golden cage, two wounds in one. He then dies a cruel death. Now, I'm not saying Nostradamus is true. He might have just, you know, cold reading, whatever. But supposedly Catherine also dreamed of it.

So supposedly she has a nightmare vision that her husband's going to die in a joust. And she begs him not to go in the joust. He goes in the joust against Montgomery, who injures the king in the first joust.

Yeah. The lance goes through his visor, through his face, through his eye, splinters into the brain.

Henri, her husband, is dead, which means Diane de Poitiers... Out?

Yeah.

I don't know if it's in a different book, but we've got a couple of images to show you. Oh yeah. And I wouldn't say that this is the 19th century equipment of cheese on toast. Do you want to describe what you can see for us? Yes.

So Alexis Soyer was releasing cookery books, but he also had other money-making schemes. Ed, what do you think they might have been? Deliveroo? Yeah. I wouldn't have put it past him, but I don't think he did that.

No, he went the other way. He went very 21st century. He went branded merch. Wow. Yeah. In the 1840s, Alexis Soyer is one of the first influencers in the food space. And he invents the art form, Annie. I'm coming out big for him. I'm swinging for the fences with Alexis Soyer. I think he's a pioneer in this.

I don't know what that is, so maybe.

So he has gas. Annie, is it a Dutch oven?

I'm assuming the Reform Club, where he's meant to work. They must be delighted. No? Their star chef is a superstar, bringing in the cash. Everyone knows him. Surely people are queuing to eat at the Reform Club. This is a win for them.

So, one thing that we haven't talked about yet is what Alexis Sawyer looked like. He walked into this room right now. What are you imagining?

Okay.

Which one are you going? You're looking at me right now, the weaselly boy. That's me.

Okay. Here is a portrait done by his wife, Emma. Okay, right. So this is through his wife's eyes. This is through, yes, exactly. This is love for you. Yeah, rat.

I was right. So, Annie, is he playing up to the Frenchiness here with the beret and the rat boy look?

He drew attention to himself. And certain people were like, this guy is a bit of a douchebag. Still being talked about. So he's as stylish as Nigella, as French as Raymond Blanc. And also Alexis Soyer is doing charity work. He's a man of the people. Do you know where he did charity work? In which country?

No. It's Ireland. I should have guessed it. Sir Ed, have you heard of the Irish potato famine? I have. We're a comedy show, but I think for the next two, three minutes, it's a bit of a gear change. This is a tragedy, right, Annie? This is a million die, probably a million have to emigrate. It's a devastating, horrible thing. And he responds to it in quite an interesting way.

Ja, ich meine, er hat etwas gemacht, wenn das Regierung nichts gemacht hat, aber es war nicht unbedingt das Beste. Also das war sein erster Eindruck mit Charity Relief. Er hat noch einen gemacht. Er ist in die Kriegszone gegangen. Wow. Weißt du, in welcher Kriegszone das sein könnte?

You might have heard of this one, the Crimean War. I have heard of that one. So that's a long way to travel. This is 1855. We know about this war because of Mary Seacole and Florence Nightingale, but for listeners who don't know where Skitarii is, which is where he went to, Skitarii weirdly is in Turkey, a totally different country to where the war was happening. 300 Meilen entfernt.

Und er bringt seinen magischen Stuhl. Natürlich bringt er es überall. Es bringt es überall, aber es ist wirklich nützlich für die Soldaten. Es ist schmucklos, was bedeutet, dass sie es in den Kriegsfällen nutzen können, weil es nicht zeigt, wo der Feind ist, wo du bist. Und die britische Armee hat es verwendet, bis die Falklandswahl.

Yeah, and he doesn't come back healthy.

I mean, we've talked quite a lot about Alexi Sawyer and his career. What are your sort of final thoughts?

I love him. I've talked about him a lot, but no one knows who he is. Historians know him and no one else.

Das ist die Part of the show where Ed and I sit quietly and sup on our turkey lobster for two minutes. Well, Annie, tell us something we need to know about Alexi's Swaye. My stopwatch is ready. You have two minutes, Annie. Take it away.

So there we go, Alexi Swaye, fun guy, I think. Yeah. Thank you very much. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we cook up another historical feast. But for now, I'm off to go and invent Turkey a la Wellington. It's basically Turkey in a rubber boot. Bye!

Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are tying our aprons and firing up the stove as we learn all about 19th century celebrity chef Alexis Soyer. And to help us, we have two very special dining companions.

In History Corner, she's an author, broadcaster and food historian, specialising in food from 1600 to the present day. That's a lot of food. You might have heard her on BBC Radio 4's The Kitchen Cabinet. Vielen Dank für die Einladung. Er ist ein Superstar. Er co-hostet den mega gewonnenen Off-Menu-Podcast. Er schätzt Dishs auf dem Great British Menu. Er hat Gags und Mocken der Woche gemacht.

Er hat eine existenzielle Krise gehabt auf Taskmaster Champion of Champions. Entschuldigung, Ed, ich musste es erwähnen. Ihr möchtet sein Food-themed Memoir, Glutton, das multikurse Leben eines sehr griechischen Jungs. Und ihr erinnert euch an unsere Episoden über Lord Byron und gothische Vampir-Literatur. Es ist Ed Gamble. Willkommen zurück, Ed. Danke, dass ich zurückgekommen bin. Erstaunlich.

Ed, du bist der foodieste Komedian in der UK.

What do you know about food history? Are you happy in the 19th century?

Das war's für heute. Wir haben gegessen, was unser liebster Zuschauer über den heutigen Thema wissen könnte. Und wir können alle einen Celebrity-Chef nennen, oder? Manche sind so berühmt, dass sie nur einen Namen brauchen. Delia, Jamie, Nigella. Aber Alexi Swaye, wahrscheinlich nicht für dich. Du wirst es wahrscheinlich nicht wissen, ohne dass du ein Student der 19.

Jahrhundert-Militär-Historie oder der Kulturen-Historie bist. Das ist der Venn-Diagramm von Leuten, die es wissen könnten. Ich bin nichts davon. Okay. So, who was this French celebrity chef? He found fame in Britain. Why is he known to ex-soldiers? Just what is a magic stove? Let's find out, right? Okay, Dr. Annie, first things first. Where and when was little Alexi born and to whom?

Born in Brie. He was born in the home of Brie. That's pretty good, isn't it? Surrounded by cheese in the labour ward. Do you want to guess what his childhood professional training was?

And he was training for the priesthood, Richard.

Ja, er ist es. Er ist der schlechte Junge der Belsquad. Also war es Bye Bye Brie für Teenage Alexi. Was war nächstes für unseren falschen Bellboy?

So he saves his life by singing the French national anthem. What song could you sing to save your life if a crowd broke in?

They're angry at the concept of podcasting. They hate podcasts.

Alexis Soyee, Fliehung der Gewalt, geht von Revolutionär-Franz in Britannien 1831, das ist während des Regens von... Wir sind noch nicht in Viktoria, sind wir?

Niemandes Lieblingskönig.

Wir wissen jetzt, dass Alexis Soyer ein Witz in der Küche ist, richtig? Aber er ist auch ein Witz mit einer Küche. Weißt du, was ich damit meine?

Mehr als das. In Bezug auf die Technologie in der Küche.

Ja, er ist innovativ in dieser Weise. Es ist ziemlich interessant, Annie. Und ich weiß nicht, ob er der Pionier ist, weil ich weiß, dass er seine Seite ein bisschen bauen möchte. Also ich weiß nicht, ob er wirklich, wirklich inventiert ist oder ob er einfach popularisiert ist. Aber er bringt viele Sachen in die Küche.

Er experimentierte auch mit Küchen-Applikationen. Er glaubt also, dass er viele Gadgets inventiert hat. Ich weiß nicht, ob er sie inventiert hat oder ob er sie lizenziert hat.

Du wirst definitiv die Hänge dieses Vortrags bekommen, danke. Also, welche dieser fünf Gadgets, einer ist nicht wahr, hat er nicht inventiert oder zumindest popularisiert? Oder glaubt, dass er sie inventiert hat. Okay, also Mechanical Kitchen Timer. Obviously, they're all big in my life. The tendon separator especially. I'm going to go with the plug strainer. It doesn't feel grand enough.

I'm going to go with that.

The cafeteria he does invent. He invented it? Yeah. So no, the one that I'm afraid I caught you out there, ice cream scoop is not his.

Yes, a cafeteria is one of his. Wow. Kitchen timer. Pretty clever, isn't it? What is one utensil that you wish someone had invented or perhaps you could invent right now that desperately we need in kitchens?

You'd be on Dragon's Den, right?

I mean, I'm here for it. I'd buy it. So the ice cream scoop comes later in the century. The others are Alexis Soyer originals, caveat, maybe not originals, but certainly he's popularizing them and claiming them.

I get the feeling he's fun in the kitchen, but 1837 was a spicy year for him romantically as well, because this is where he meets his good lady wife.

But yes, Emma died in 1842, so her romance was quite short, but was very meaningful to him.

It does.

You're right, it's quite gothic, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Does this sort of grief slow his rise, his culinary quest for stardom? Because this is a man who's got drive.

But Assyriology is named after the fact that there's this incredible library, which dates to when roughly? The 7th century BC, so the 600s. Amazing. And so Nineveh, the royal library was discovered in what we now call Mosul in Iraq. 30,000 cuneiform tablets, which is amazing. They were brought to the British Museum, the home of Iraqi history. Yes.

But this wasn't the first time the massive collection of ancient cuneiform tablets had been put in a museum, right? Because this is what the library is. This was already a collection of knowledge by someone saying, this stuff's old.

Really?

Wow. So this is from about 650 BCE. So it's very late in the grand sweep of Mesopotamian history, but it is earlier than, like, it's earlier than Socrates.

So, you know, when we say ancient, it's ancient, but it's really late in...

So it's kind of, I'm doing, I'm slightly struggling to work out how to frame that. But yeah, we've got Ashurbanipal. I like to call him Ashurbanishampal. I don't know why. I always imagine him in my head.

I highly recommend it. And you will remember her from our episode on the ancient Babylonians. It's Dr. Moody Al-Rashid. Welcome, Moody. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Delighted to have you back. And in Comedy Corner, he's a fantastic comedian, actor and author. You'll know him from Dastmaster, Live at the Apollo. Have a news for you from his two Netflix comedy specials.

I'm going to have to say it again just to make sure people understand, but this is a Neo-Assyrian king saying, this stuff belongs in a museum. It's 2,500 years old. So it's an ancient person going, this is archaeology.

Or this is knowledge. That's mad for us, right?

So the Library of Nineveh was this incredible compilation of all the knowledge, 2,500 years worth, put into one place, and then in the year 612 BCE, it was destroyed. Oh, no. Along came some baddies who sacked the city, and that was fantastic news for you, Moody.

Do you know why? Hmm.

Because they set the building on fire and it baked the clay.

So yeah, so the next episode of Great British Bake Off, that's what we want to see.

OK, so we know how cuneiform was deciphered and we know how it was preserved. The library burned down baking the knowledge, which is extraordinary. Let's now discover how cuneiform was first invented. Phil, you've already mentioned the alphabets. We know it has letters in it. Cuneiform isn't phonetic.

But in the very, very, very late old Persian, there was a tiny element of phonetic in there, a little bit, a little bit alphabetic, a little bit. That's right. So just right at the end, it changed a tiny bit. But the system is not phonetic. Is that right?

Two, count them. Maybe you've read his side-splitting book, Sidesplitter, which I loved on audiobook. But you'll definitely remember him from our previous episodes of You're Dead to Me. Most recently on the Terracotta Warriors and the History of Kung Fu, which sounds like a film title but isn't. Returning for a triumphant fifth appearance in...

How many characters are there in cuneiform? If you were to be a scribe and train, how many would you have to learn?

Yeah. Can we see, can we show Phil some?

We haven't smuggled anything out of a library because it's probably too valuable. So we've got some pictures on an iPad. The iPad is stolen. Just add the facade.

So we have a tablet on a tablet.

more complicated characters but for those first three it is just like just marking yeah just marking but that was some very good philology phil well done oh thanks i feel like you really like you've just brought the level of the podcast up there i think everyone's very impressed um you know we're now talking about a technology that's 5350 years old the obvious question is why clay why you know the why is clay the technology

More people, more stuff means you need to write things down. Mm-hm. So the invention of writing is an accounting system. It's like a software for keeping track of your receipts. Exactly. And then it turns into literature. Is that fair? That's exactly right. OK.

Phil, together we've tackled mighty military matters. We've done the Borgias. We've done Genghis Khan. We've done the Terracotta Warriors and Kung Fu. Today we're going quite nerdy. What does the word cuneiform mean to you? Spiritually. Emotionally.

We should talk about who can read this. I'm assuming most people are not literate. We've got multiple societies here. It's very generic to just say Bronze Age Mesopotamia, but who can read and write cuneiform? Is it a very highly skilled thing? Can you have basic functional literacy if you're an ordinary fisherman? Who's got that knowledge?

Oh, that's sick.

Keep it to the masses. This is just us. You said we have women scribes. The most famous one, I suppose, would be the daughter of King Sargon. So Sargon the Great of Arkady is a very famous sort of

He's around like 4,000 years ago. But his daughter is the first woman author in history?

The earliest named author in history is a princess writing 4,300 years ago. Exactly. Wow. That's really cool. It's very cool.

The tune is Sean Paul. It's Ashurbanipal's Sean Paul, yeah. That would actually be fantastic. Okay. And so how do you, like, can you send messages? Are there letters? Is there a postal system? Can you communicate with tablets and cuneiform, I suppose, is the question?

So in the 19th century, when you get the invention of telegraphy and you'd go to the telegraphy office and you dictate your thing and someone would put into Morse code and then someone else would translate it for them. And it's the same thing in, but 4,000 years ago. So you're dictating it. So it's like, hey, Siri, but instead it's, hey, scribe. Describe. Putting the Siri in a Siri.

I didn't catch that. I'm sorry, I did not hear. Please say that again. What kind of things do you think people were dictating in their tablets, Phil? In the letters to each other. Yeah, what kind of stuff do you think is getting jotted down?

Actually, yeah. There must have been loads. The Hymn to Nankazi is one of the earliest things ever written down, and that's a song to a goddess about beer. And I know that one of the earliest ever Kineoform tablets we have is about beer. Mm-hmm. That's right. It's amazing. I feel like nothing has changed. Can you tell us about this ancient, is it one tablet? Is it fragments? What have we got?

I mean, Moody, I don't want to give him too many sort of stars early on, but I feel that was quite good.

The beer tablet.

So he's a beer magnate. He's like... He's like, Mr. Heineken, he's in charge of all of the beer of the city.

Yes, because beer is a currency, almost.

And the font for old is just like a really big font.

With a straw, yeah.

So Kashim might be one of the first named people in history.

And he's a beer brewer.

That's great. So cool. Okay. So there we go. So beer is the history. The history of the world is beer, basically. Beer and writing. Slightly drunk texting. So we have hundreds of thousands. I was a medieval historian by training, and I used to complain that we had too many documents. But you have hundreds of thousands of Kinoform tablets. So you haven't read them all.

That's extraordinary because that gives us such a window into daily life.

Which is arguably the first great story. It's the earliest great literature in human history that's recorded. And we have it because of cuneiform.

And do we have it in complete form, the Gilgamesh?